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Sponsoring Niece from abroad

Printed From: Canada Immigration and Visa Discussion Forum
Category: Canada Immigration Topics
Forum Name: Family Class Sponsorship
Forum Description: A review of current sponsorship programs (permanent residence) promoting the reunion in Canada of close relatives from abroad.
URL: https://secure.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7467
Printed Date: 26 Nov 2020 at 1:57pm


Topic: Sponsoring Niece from abroad
Posted By: newfie007
Subject: Sponsoring Niece from abroad
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2011 at 1:02am
Ok, I know the CIC web site states clearly NO! you can not sponsor a Niece or Nephew (or even brothers and sisters for that matter, unless......).
 
So in short NO. However we desperatly want to sponsor my wifes niece. We were even told by adoption athorities that CIC will turn down a attempted adoption.
 
However, as a Canadian (who is married to a PR), I can't figure out how people do it. Through english classes my wife has met several people who have managed to get sponsored by their Aunt or Uncle. One girl was 28 years old and came to Canada being sponsored by her Aunt. When we ask these people how they did it....they all respond with the same answer...."we filled out the paper work...." I DON'T get it!!!!!! They even sound amazed when we say that the rules from CIC state this is not possible. They act like they know nothing of these rules....it was all straight forward. Aunt has money to cover sponsorship....thus fill out paper work and wait.
 
WOW!!!! What am I missing. As a Canadian....this confirms the "grape-vine" stories of immigrants bringing over their whole family and all living in a 2 bedroom apartment..........
 
So CIC DOES allow this type of sponsorship....don't tell me I am wrong....7 people won't say the same lie. If there are tricks please private message me......there ARE WAYS!!!!! I KNOW THERE ARE!!!!
 
Next time I see a family of 18 living in a 3 bedroom apartment in East Toronto....I will camp on their doorstep until they tell me!!!!



Replies:
Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2011 at 3:22am
Foremost: there are a variety of approaches to immigration, and a lot of people do not differentiate much between the various classes: some will discuss their motive, the why, as if that explains the "how," but the "how" was orchestrated by a consultant or lawyer or through the help of a family friend.

For example, a lot of small businesses are very much entangled in many aspects of immigration, the business used, for example, to bring family to Canada under the umbrella of a worker class of immigration. CIC is, of course, aware of this and attempts to sort the authentic from the just-using-this-as-the-way to get neices or nephews or whoever into Canada, but to some extent the Canadian government does not want to discourage immigrants from building growing small businesses using, in turn, immigrating workers to expand their business. So it gets complicated.

And then there is outright fraud. You allude to this relative to adoption: a person may indeed legitimately adopt their neice. But if the motive for the adoption is to merely facilitate the neice coming to Canada, that is fraud, that is entering into a relationship of convenience for the purpose of obtaining status in Canada. Many do it. Many get away with it. Many do not get away with it. Some are even subjected to more severe penalties for the fraud.

Thus, the short answer is: there are ways, and the caveat is: those ways are not necessarily entirely honest, some even illegal.

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: newfie007
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2011 at 11:18am
I don't think adopting my wife's Niece to come to Canada is fraud at all!!! Of course she has to come to Canada if we adopt her....why should we be prosucuted for this?
Many companies make MONEY from the adoption of POOR children abroad....THAT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL....SHAME ON CANADA to SUPPORT THIS!!!!!!
 
However, if we wanted to adopt my wifes Niece (who lives in a two ROOM home, with seven others; thus is very poor) we are NOT allowed to adopt her because she is family and sponsoring family members are not allowed. We just want her to be raised in a good enviroment, get a good education etc......
 
Nope! not allowed! But we could adopt 12 children from Africa, as long as we use a Canadian Agent that needs 12K per child. ITs a business afterall. The Canadian Government is the largest supporter of Human Traffic. SHAME ON CANADA!!!!


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2011 at 9:53pm
It is the motive for the adoption that matters. If the adoption is to obtain status to live in Canada (as you say, to be raised in a good environment), that is a relationship for convenience, not a "genunie" relationship, and will not qualify for sponsorship.

If a couple adopts a neice because the neice's own parents are deceased or otherwise no longer capable of being the child's parent, and they want to raise the child as their own child, their adopted child (rather than as proxies for the child's parents just so the child can have the opportunities that Canada has to offer) that would be geniune (so long as the reasons for it are indeed legitimate).

The sponsor and the applicant bear the burden of proving the relationship is genuine.

Where something like this becomes a fraud is when the adoption is indeed so that the neice can come to Canada and be raised in, again, as you say, a good environment, but the couple adopting the neice lie about this reason . . . lying makes it a fraud . . . and of course the reason for lying is because otherwise the adoption will not qualify.

There are SEVEN BILLION people on the planet now. Not all of them can be brought to Canada to live in a good environment. I do not know what the just rule would be. I do know it is not possible to allow anyone with family abroad to bring everyone to Canada. So, there are rules. The object for now is to fairly apply the rules.

Anyone who fudges (lies) to skirt the rules engages in fraud. Fraud is a crime. There is no shame for treating criminals like criminals.   


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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: newfie007
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2011 at 4:30am

I know the rules....thats why I am so surprised on how CANADA has missed the boat on this one....

1) To adopt a child overseas, one must not know the child; they must go through a agent that charges a hefty bill (over 15 K per child, plus legal fees in both countries) This is the legalized human trafficking part sanctioned by Canada. The child may or may not adopt to his/her new environment, as there is no natural family with them etc. COMPARE this with a adoption of a family member; one would not need to pay any agent money (This is a problem for Canada....nothing to tax).....the transition would be more smooth as their are familiar faces....
 
Imagine what our niece would think when she got older, when she finds out we adopted a child we never knew over her. Psssss....maybe we could adopt her Friend onstead.....Canada would allow this.....
 
2) Compare a family that has the money to support a child family member adoption (thus no burden on the Canada tax system (thus no different than having another baby naturally on our own) versus the REFUGEE Scam Canada has flowing......Allow a refugee to gain status with no income and grant him/her to bring family over too while not working......Nice!!!! My taxes pay for this!!!!!
 
I wonder which LEFT WING NUT made up these rules?


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2011 at 1:26pm
That is not at all an accurate picture of either how adoption works nor other aspects of the sponsorship provisions.

There is not an impediment to adopting a neice or nephew. One can adopt a neice. And one can indeed sponsor the adopted neice. Canada does allow this. But they do require that the relationship be a genuine one not a scam to just facilitate bringing cousins, neices, aunts, in-laws, and others into Canada so they can have better opporunities, a better life. If your neice does not have parents or there is a reason why your neice's parents cannot continue to be your neice's parents, Canada will allow such an adopted child to be sponsored. The protestations to the contrary are simply not true.

But if one does adopt a neice or nephew, there is of course the obvious likelihood that it is not a genuine adoption but rather one done for the explicit purpose of facilitating the obtaining of status to live in Canada. So that will be examined. The policy underlying the family sponsorship law is to facilitate the reunification of family members, that is those who are in genuine family relationships, not as a means to bring cousins and neices and aunts and other extended family to Canada to live, to have better opportunities in life.

You are confusing personal objectives with social policy objectives. They are not the same.

The refugee issue is a huge problem. Canada is a signatory to treaties that tie Canada's hands some in this. If you look at reported decisions from the Federal Courts, refugee cases are clogging and perhaps coming close to overwhelming the system . . . at the Federal Court level there are more reported cases about refugees than all other reported cases combined. This is a reflection of the world in which we live today, in which Canada is just one more player, and as I said, much of what underlies the refugee problem has as much (probably more) to do with international law and foreign affairs than it does with Canada' approach to immigration policy.

I hope you will refrain, from now on, from ad hominem slurs like the last sentence in your post . . . if you want to engage in ideological name calling please find another forum to participate in.

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: CEC
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2011 at 3:17pm
You gotta also keep in mind that people lie. Smile

When they are asked how they got into Canada they said Skilled Worker, Family Sponsorship etc but not many say they applied for refugee and other things like that so do not believe in everything you hear from people.


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App. Sent Vegreville: June/14/10
App. Received: June/17/10
Started Processing: Aug/26/10
AiP: April/11/2011


Posted By: Patience Tuesday
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2011 at 3:28pm
Hm.  This is an interesting topic for me. 

Where in the OP manual, please, are approved relations?  Would this child fall under their auspices?

I know of a situation in which a Canadian is married to a Foreign National.  The FN spouse has an ailing parent who is the sole provider for the child in question.  The other birth parent has abandoned the family, and may even be incarcerated, incapacitated or intestate.  Their whereabouts are unknown, and from what I gather, it is just as well for the child that they do NOT find the other birth parent.  (history of abuse of the other parent and the child)

The child would have only these folk to rely on if that parent passes: an impoverished Aunt, a half-sibling who does not want to have a dependent as they are studying for their PHD, two Uncles who do not want to care for the child, all who are in the country of origin.  They also have a half-sibling who is the FN Permanent Resident who is married in Canada.  The child is of tender years, well and away from the 22 year cut off of a dependent relation.

I mean no disrespect to the fellow in NL who wants to get his wife's niece in Canada.   In fact, it is my hope that they would be able to find a way as will be.  It would be good to help understand what may need to take place if that parent does pass, as it is a very real concern.

Thank you.

Edit: Re-reading about the Aunt that sponsored the 28 year old Niece.  It strikes me that she may actually be over under a "caregiver" sponsorship program.  Just a thought about it, nothing more.

Edit again:  I have found it!  OP3, and the child above would qualify.  Gracious, that is a hard read.  If you wish to see where the list of manuals are, here's the URL:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/index.asp



Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2011 at 4:05pm
As I said in my first post in this thread: there are ways and I acknowledged that some are not entirely honest or legal.

"Some" being a quantity that is less than all, that statement was intended to also acknowledge that there are ways which are honest and legal . . . many ways actually. And I alluded to some of the most common: The Canadian becomes a business owner of a business that qualifies to sponsor certain workers and the neice (cousin, nephew) works to become qualified under that category, and . . . well eventually the extended family member is brought to Canada to work for the uncle or aunt. This is oft times done on a larger scale: for example, a qualified brother could be brought to Canada this way, and bring all dependents with him . . . and once they have come and landed in Canada, the brother can go home and resume life there while the dependents remain in Canada as PRs. This is just one of many, many ways.

And, of course, there are not so honest ways as well.

Sponsorship of a legitimate/genuinely adopted dependent child is OK. If the child is a member of extended family, of course CIC will examine the case closely to be sure it is indeed a genuine adoption. There are many factors involved in making such a determination, but the fact that the adopted child is a neice or nephew does not preclude adoption and sponsoring as one's own child . . . though the burden of proving it is genuine is more difficult. If the neice is orphaned, it is a lot, lot less difficult. Bottom line: if the adoption is a genuine adoption of a child to make that child one's own child and raise that child as one's own, that is OK. But CIC is well aware that very, very few aunts and uncles adopt their neices or nephews to raise as their own while the neice's or nephew's parents are still alive. Who does this? Well, yeah, many will do it in order to bring the neice or nephew to Canada in order to give them more opportunities in life, if this was allowed, but that is explicitly about obtaining status to live in Canada, so it is an adoption of convenience, that is, not genuine.

Such adoptions may be genuine in many circumstances. Each case depends on its own particulars. If a parent or someone who has been acting in the role of the parent, is still alive and competent, the burden is such that I'd strongly recommend using a qualified immigration lawyer (NOT a consultant) to assist in both the adoption and the sponsored child application.

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: nu_bee
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2011 at 9:06am
Ok I am new to this forum and my brother (a permanent resident) is going to try to sponsor my daughter (ergo his niece)... It says in the http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/sponsor/relatives-apply-who.asp

Who can be sponsored

You can sponsor:

  • brothers or sisters, nephews or nieces, granddaughters or grandsons who are orphaned, under 18 years of age and not married or in a common-law relationship
  • another relative of any age or relationship but only under specific conditions (see Note below)

Note: you can sponsor one relative regardless of age or relationship only if you do not have a living spouse or common-law partner, conjugal partner, a son or daughter, parent, grandparent, sibling, uncle, aunt, nephew or niece who could be sponsored as a member of the family class, and you do not have any relative who is a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident or registered as an Indian under the Indian Act.... so doesn't this mean that the sponsorship of nieces are allowed?...

since I am new I would just like to clarify this point of discussion.... thanks and I hope someone can clarify this point ;-)



Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2011 at 11:01am
yes, a neice. . . who is ORPHANED . . .

-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: pmm
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2011 at 12:43pm
HI

Originally posted by nu_bee nu_bee wrote:

Ok I am new to this forum and my brother (a permanent resident) is going to try to sponsor my daughter (ergo his niece)... It says in the http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/sponsor/relatives-apply-who.asp<h2>Who can be sponsored</h2>
     

You can sponsor:


     
  • brothers or sisters, nephews or nieces, granddaughters
                or grandsons who are orphaned, under 18 years of age and not
    married or in a common-law
               relationship
  • another relative of any age or relationship but only
    under specific
                       conditions
    (see Note below)

     

<a name="who_cannot" id="who_cannot"></a>Note:
you can sponsor one relative regardless of age or relationship only
           if you do not have a living spouse or common-law partner, conjugal
partner,
           a son or daughter, parent, grandparent, sibling, uncle, aunt, nephew
or niece
           who could be sponsored as a member of the family class, and you do
not have
           any relative who is a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident or
registered
           as an Indian under the Indian Act.... so doesn't this mean that the sponsorship of nieces are allowed?...

since I am new I would just like to clarify this point of discussion.... thanks and I hope someone can clarify this point ;-)




Sure they can sponsored if you are single never married, you have no children, your parents and grandparents are dead. And you don't have either a Brother/Sister/Aunt/Uncle/Nephew/Niece living in Canada.

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PMM


Posted By: nu_bee
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2011 at 10:20pm
Thanks PMM... yup he is single, never married, has no children our parents and grandparents are deceased and no one else lives in Canada.  Thanks for the clarification, sometimes wording and punctuation can be misleading especially in legalese parlance.  


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 4:49am
The http://www.iijcan.org/eliisa/highlight.do?text=residency+citizenship&language=en&searchTitle=Canada+%28federal%29+-+Federal+Court+of+Canada&path=/en/ca/fct/doc/2011/2011fc929/2011fc929.html - Kulvir Kaur Brar vs. MIC case is a recent example of an attempt to adopt a neice and sponsor the neice for PR, the application being denied because of a finding that the adoption was for the purpose of obtaining status in Canada . . . as in not a genuine relationship.


-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: pmm
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 1:53pm

Hi

Originally posted by nu_bee nu_bee wrote:

Thanks PMM... yup he is single, never married, has no children our parents and grandparents are deceased and no one else lives in Canada.  Thanks for the clarification, sometimes wording and punctuation can be misleading especially in legalese parlance.  


You must ensure that he doesn't have a spouse/partner and their are no Aunts/Uncles/Nieces/Nephews/Brother/Sisters in Canada.

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PMM



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