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730 days in Canada - how do they keep track?????

Printed From: Canada Immigration and Visa Discussion Forum
Category: Canada Immigration Topics
Forum Name: Preserving Permanent Residence Status
Forum Description: How long can a permanent resident remain outside of Canada? Commentaries on preserving permanent residence.
URL: https://secure.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=703
Printed Date: 31 Mar 2020 at 10:00am


Topic: 730 days in Canada - how do they keep track?????
Posted By: suse
Subject: 730 days in Canada - how do they keep track?????
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 6:42am
Hello,

this question might be a bit dumb. I wonder how they keep track on how many days you spend in Canada for the PR. I came for one month in Canada but had to leave temporarily because i still have a job outside Canada,but nobody seemed to care. I did not meet any officer when leaving, noone stamped my passport or checked my PR card. So how do they know I am gone? And what will they ask when I return???

thanks for shedding some light on this...



Replies:
Posted By: job_seeker
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 9:26am
Originally posted by suse suse wrote:

Hello,

this question might be a bit dumb. I wonder how they keep track on how many days you spend in Canada for the PR. I came for one month in Canada but had to leave temporarily because i still have a job outside Canada,but nobody seemed to care. I did not meet any officer when leaving, noone stamped my passport or checked my PR card. So how do they know I am gone? And what will they ask when I return???

thanks for shedding some light on this...


What about when you entered the other country when you went out of Canada? Did you receive a stamp?


Posted By: suse
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 9:35am
no, i live in switzerland and i didn't get any stamp either, they just scan the passport, they put it under some kind of green light...i guess maybe to check if it is fake or not.


Posted By: job_seeker
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 9:53am
Originally posted by suse suse wrote:

no, i live in switzerland and i didn't get any stamp either, they just scan the passport, they put it under some kind of green light...i guess maybe to check if it is fake or not.


Then you would have the burden of proof that you have stayed in Canada for 730 days in 5 years to maintain you PR status.


Posted By: tanushree.tiku
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 5:15am
suse...when they scan ur passport they automatically have all the details of the date of entry and the date of exit....


Posted By: job_seeker
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 9:36am
Originally posted by tanushree.tiku tanushree.tiku wrote:

suse...when they scan ur passport they automatically have all the details of the date of entry and the date of exit....


The country that scanned the passport may have the information but not all countries share information about arrivals and departures. So if a Canadian PR travels frequently outside Canada it is best to keep track of his/her arrivals and departures (boarding passes will help).


Posted By: suse
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 9:44am
my passport was scanned after my arrival in Switzerland and not in Canada.Is it possible that Canada would share all information with all the countries,about all the people entering and leaving??


Posted By: Zygurn
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 9:46am
Remember too that if the PR works for a Canadian company and he travels frequently because of his employer, then those days still count toward the 730 days needed to keep residence or if the PR is accompanying a Canadian citizen, those days still count; but like someone mentioned, it will be up to you to prove that you have those days, Canada will rate you down if you can't prove them.


Posted By: suse
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 9:54am
so, as i understand, it's a kind of trust thing?? and how can i prove them that i stayed in Canada excatly 730 days?? there is a lot of things that i can do to work around these..i don't think that it is based on trust...i mean, really???


Posted By: job_seeker
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 10:04am
Originally posted by suse suse wrote:

so, as i understand, it's a kind of trust thing?? and how can i prove them that i stayed in Canada excatly 730 days?? there is a lot of things that i can do to work around these..i don't think that it is based on trust...i mean, really???


Keep your boarding passes to and from Canada. It is not based on trust ; it should be based on hard facts. Passport stamps (arrivals in other countries), credit card transactions while in Canada... almost anything with name and date that will show the time you are in Canada. Looks like a lot of paper trail if you will often be out of the country but might be well worth it if keeping your PR status is important and you do travel a lot.


Posted By: N~Delta
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 4:44am
I am sure there are several ways to account for 730 days and it has absolutely nothing to do with trust... it is a numbers game...


Posted By: ruff__Ryders___
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2010 at 1:56am
i agree it is not a trust thing, but how it goes the immigration officer asks you when you return to canada for how long have u been outside and then should check your entry and exit stamps in to other countries. im not sure if he has access to the system where he could view your transactions during canada REAL-TIME....

the thing that's confusing me, if they really are working this way, then we can easily make someone use our credit cards and rent an apartement and sub lease it under our name and that's it, we will be physically in canada and when we return we apply for the citizenship...could it be this easy :P ??


Posted By: IslandGirl
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2010 at 3:23am
Can you also have someone renew your driver's license for you, show regular everyday purchases on your credit and/or debit cards, use your health card, go to the doctor's using your name - oh yes - and hide your other entry stamps in your passport - those are just a few things for examples

Nothing irks the crap out of me more than people trying to scam
I love reading thru CanLii about people trying to scam on their 1095 days and being denied
I really wish the requirements for Canadian citizenship were much more stringent - I really do

Originally posted by ruff__Ryders___ ruff__Ryders___ wrote:

i agree it is not a trust thing, but how it goes the immigration officer asks you when you return to canada for how long have u been outside and then should check your entry and exit stamps in to other countries. im not sure if he has access to the system where he could view your transactions during canada REAL-TIME....

the thing that's confusing me, if they really are working this way, then we can easily make someone use our credit cards and rent an apartement and sub lease it under our name and that's it, we will be physically in canada and when we return we apply for the citizenship...could it be this easy :P ??


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Used to be known here as "feb7" - there's no doubt to my gender this way
http://tinyurl.com/ydsvlx4 - My previous profile


Posted By: mod
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2010 at 6:00am
945 days are must to be in canada for getting pr


Posted By: robertkoul
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 12:30am
it is based on trust....
the answer to your question is what do you do when the officer asks you about UR absences?

if you lie, and if U get caught, it becomes a crime. Crime usually gets punishment!!

So don't get caught if U plan to lie....eh!


Posted By: N~Delta
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 6:37am

Sanctimonious fervor... He who is without sin,let him cast the first stone... The question wasn't a plea to lie to the authorities/or how to..



Posted By: edmotonresident
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 2:18am
Originally posted by suse suse wrote:

so, as i understand, it's a kind of trust thing?? and how can i prove them that i stayed in Canada excatly 730 days?? there is a lot of things that i can do to work around these..i don't think that it is based on trust...i mean, really???
 
Your passport will be stamped when you re-enter Candian border, so you will be asked for a proof of the visiting country passport control or any other mean they control your entrance.
Canadian borders do not stamp exits, but they stamp entrance Wink


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"Canada, where good people live"


Posted By: canvis2006
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2010 at 9:54pm
No, they don't stamp it unless you are sent to immigration secondary inspection. Only other way is to ask the CUSTOMS officer to stamp the passport when they check/stamp your customs declaration card.....because most PR's do not get sent to immigration secondary unless their PR status is in question. Usually only people entering first time or foreign visitors get sent to immigration secondary.

But if you get caught with mis-representation regarding this, you could end up losing PR status altogether. So be honest about your trips. Remember CBSA has the APNR program in effect....(advance passenger name record)....(i believe it still does ,not sure though)...


Posted By: edmotonresident
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 1:36am
Canvis2006,
 
I have visited backhome once during my stay in Canada, I got my passport stamped at the entry, i didn't have to go thru the custom, (no immigration secondary inspection) cos i had no laguages...
So, i have 2 entry stamps on my passport, one at the initial entry (landed immigrant) and the second when i arrived from my short visit..
They also stamped my wife's passport when she followed me after her visit backhome, no laguages also, no sec. imm. inspec.


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"Canada, where good people live"


Posted By: splendor903
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2010 at 4:42pm

You cannot enter Canada without PR Card.

Once you screen your PR card they know your entry details


Posted By: canvis2006
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2010 at 8:16pm
yeah i know when I was returning to Canada from Portugal(Lisbon) after a short visit to my parents, the airline agent at airport check-in desk swiped my PR card several times.......not sure if that info was transmitted to CBSA/CIC system but I asked Canada customs to stamp my passport, he asked the reason so i told him it's for citizenship purposes....he did not mind....
The guy stamped my passport with "Canada Customs" stamp, with date and airport name.
I also had Portuguese Immigration stamp my passport on both arrival/exit from Portugal.....so the stamps in passport can clearly show my trips.
My US visits are also stamped in passport, as is the american visa.My visa was issued after the "security clearance" so i am also required to get a departure stamp from US immigration at each visit....so I got stamps to prove my entry/exit to USA......

So make sure you try to get the stamps from countries you enter/exit.
It makes everything easier.....for us and for CIC


Posted By: ecs
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2010 at 11:24am
Canvis, What is your Security CLearance from the US?


Posted By: MajidS
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 7:53pm
Passport stamps are only a secondary check for CIC when it comes to calculating PR status. Their main check is done in the background on your residency status via your work history, residence (physical addresses) history, and tax records. If someone has not lived in Canada, then they obviously have no work / tax history. That is how CIC flags certain citizenship applications for what is called a "Residency Questionnaire". Once a PR is flagged, CIC puts them through a rigorous investigation, possibly in front of a citizenship judge. Of course, if at any time CIC suspects a PR has willfully lied, the PR status can be revoked.

Hope that helps!!


Posted By: canvis2006
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 10:32pm
ecs, it simply means that my USA visa was issued after they did a background/security clearance on me.....


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2010 at 3:32am
MajidS hits it spot on.

Of course people can lie, and some do lie, on all sorts of applications to governments, for all sorts of reasons. And some get caught. Some don't. For my buck, I'd suggest that it is not a good idea, worse, it is a bad idea. Not worth it.

The primary enforcement tool for addressing the residency requirement for PRs is simply the CBSA interview at the POE . . . while they cannot deny entry to someone who is a PR, even if they obviously do not meet the residency requirement, CBSA officers at the POE are the ones most likely to commence the process leading to a person's eventual revocation of PR and removal. While any such interview is largely based on personal representations at the POE, there are all sorts of ways for well-trained, attentive officers to identify problematic cases. Your passport is in their hands, by the way, while they are asking you questions . . . and if the questions are about absences from Canada, they better be consistent with stamps in the passport and consistent with their electronic databases (these days, if they swipe your ID, it is in the system).

It is obvious, however, that CIC is not interested in enforcing the residency requirement in an absolutist fashion . . . they are mostly interested in persons who have few (or less) ties in Canada, who really have not had an intention to reside in Canada. There are all sorts of exceptions allowed, for example, including H&C grounds among others. Moreover, if a PR can get back into Canada without a problem, no matter how long they were absent from Canada, all they need to do to fully re-establish meeting the residency requirement is spend 730 days in Canada . . . even if they were gone for 15 years, if they return to Canada and are not subjected to removal proceedings (for failure to meet the residency requirement), after 730 days in Canada they are bona fide PRs (one of the appeal cases involves someone who returned to Canada on a visitor visa, and after two years he was OK to stay even though he had, prior to his return, been outside of Canada for many, many years, and had actually surrendered his PR card to the Canadian Embassy).

When it comes to renewing the PR card, one has to account for all addresses at which they lived for the past five years, and itemize all foreign travel in the last five years. Sure, one can lie about this. But that is a fool's game, more often than not anyway.

BTW -- I have not had to show my PR card (or any other identification) once when returning to Canada, in the four or five trips I have made outside the country since I landed. (I realize I need to start keeping exact track of all such trips.)

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: gggomez
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 3:17pm
one way they knew I was out of the country and how long I was gone was by the delcleration card. This is scanned and viewable to a few different government offices. Hope this helps.


Posted By: Donvalley
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2010 at 5:49pm
I think they don't keep track or verify everything... this is my opinion not an official info.

This is from my post in another thread:
....decided to continue there and came on temporary visits of max two weeks on annual vacations and last visit was two days before his PR expiry. Although he don't accumulated 100 days in total residency, no problems, he was in, no questions asked. Sent his application for renewal, approved, received PR and traveled back. No credit card, no employer, no work history, no rental, no t4, no tax, no nothing, just a bank account, that is his only "tie with Canada". Another weird thing was his PR Card was not for five years, expiry date was almost seven years from his landing date.
His travel documents are stamped with most entry/exits, country he works doesn't allow longer than six month vacations, everything is clear like day light. But still mighty CIC renewed it.

Read  full post here:  http://www.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1838&title=730-days-not-mandatory - http://www.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1838&title=730-days-not-mandatory


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Sent-May 22|E-cas "Rcvd": Nov 16|
In Process: Jan 29 2010
|Transf:Mar 08|
Test:30 Aug Oath: 16 Sep


Posted By: canvis2006
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2010 at 6:02pm
dpenabill,

you said you did not have to show your PR card upon entry to Canada on some of your trips, you better ensure CIC/CBSA have recorded your entries as a PR (I assume you hold a passport from a visa-exempt country).


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2010 at 2:15am
I don't know how they would have. I have been waved through the PIL every time but one -- all land crossings from the U.S. so far -- and the one time was for customs, filled out the declaration form but that was it, no showing of any kind of ID with that.

Yes I hold a passport from a visa-exempt country.

I am also driving a car registered to me (yes, here in Canada). But I don't anticipate that every trip will be in my car.

I am very certain this is not an issue relative to retaining PR status, that is, for purposes of meeting the PR residency obligation.

Whether it could trigger RQ for citizenship, I am not so certain, but I have the strong impression that so long as I disclose all my trips, all my absences, so that nothing in their records or my travel documents suggest any trips or longer absences than what I disclose in the residency calculation, that should not trigger any concern, let alone doubts or skepticism.

I could be wrong, but as I have posted elsewhere, while discrepancies between their records, one's travel documents, and the residency calculation submitted with the app will draw their attention, particularly if there is any suggestion in the records of unreported absences, I have seen no hint that reporting more absences than their records show, or that appear in one's travel documents, will trigger more scrutiny. And while I realize that what CIC does, does not always make sense, to do otherwise really would not make sense on a scale even CIC probably does not approach.

Of course if there are indications of exits and unaccounted for periods of time with no proof of re-entry, that might "raise" an issue. However, I have plenty of on-going proof of my presence here. Since I live full-time in a house I share with my wife, some utilities in my name alone, with minimal absences, and I run a professional business (and attendant that have many signed contracts showing my business address here), attend church almost weekly, have lots of transactional evidence of day-to-life (ATM transactions for example), see my local dentist several times a year, and so on and so on, I am absolutely not worried about showing my presence here.

I would, however, when the time comes, like to see my citizenship app sail through the process (much as my PR app did), and not get sidetracked with RQ or such. But if that were to happen, it would just be a matter of waiting, since as I said, I have and am keeping plenty of records of my activities here (many of them necessary for my taxes anyway) and if need be I could garner many sworn declarations by people who know me.

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: pzb
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2010 at 9:07am
Originally posted by canvis2006 canvis2006 wrote:

you said you did not have to show your PR card upon entry to Canada on some of your trips, you better ensure CIC/CBSA have recorded your entries as a PR (I assume you hold a passport from a visa-exempt country).


CBSA does not record entries as a PR, per se.  They simply record entries into Canada, either by vehicle or by name (depending on method of entry).  I have used a variety of methods entry - passport, PR card, NEXUS card, iris scan, even a birth certificate and drivers license a time or two.  My CBSA travel history report showed all the entries and did not show any difference between entries made pre-landing and post-landing. 

Keep in mind that, if you are a PR or Canadian citizen, once you are in Canada, you are set.  After you clear customs, is does not matter if the CBSA officer was thinking of you as a visitor; your status is not changed on each trip.  I have personally confirmed this, as the NEXUS system was rather confused and flagging me as a US resident visiting Canada (vs. US Citizen resident in Canada) for a while, and the BSO confirmed that it did not matter.

Thanks,
Peter


Posted By: canvis2006
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2010 at 10:39pm
Thanks for the detailed explanation @ Peter (pzb).



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