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Residency Obligation

Printed From: Canada Immigration and Visa Discussion Forum
Category: Canada Immigration Topics
Forum Name: Preserving Permanent Residence Status
Forum Description: How long can a permanent resident remain outside of Canada? Commentaries on preserving permanent residence.
URL: https://secure.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2652
Printed Date: 27 Oct 2020 at 5:47pm


Topic: Residency Obligation
Posted By: off2canada
Subject: Residency Obligation
Date Posted: 25 May 2010 at 1:19pm
I made my landing in Canada on 20th May 2007 as a a PR and was in Canada till 2nd July 2007 for a period of 43 days.After that I have never entered Canada again.

My PR card was issued on 7th June 2007 and is valid till 6th June 2012.

Now based on whatever little information I could gather from various websites/discussion forums,I believe that I have to be physically present for 730 days in Canada from the date of my landing and next five years (betn 20 May 2007 to 19 May 2012).

Now I intend to enter Canada again in first week of July 2010 and stay there for good(Release from my present job and other commitments in my home country will not allow me to enter before this date)with a valid PR card,my PR card will be due for renewal on 7th June 2012 but by that time I would still be short by a week or so for completing 730 days requirement.

Now my query is, will my PR card be renewed even if I don't meet the residency obligation of 730 days in and such a situation can I file a case for the waiver of this shortfall under humanitarian grounds and what are the chances that my PR card will be renewed.

Won't I be considered as staying illegally if I don't renew my card on 7th June 2012.

What all other legal implications can be there like if I enter Canada after a 3 year break will they let me enter canada or can I be denied entry or any other issues which can arise

Would appreciate a quick reply

Cheers




Replies:
Posted By: Harmonia
Date Posted: 25 May 2010 at 3:00pm
I advise applying for PR card renewal only AFTER you have met the 730 day residency obligation.
 
They only look at the past 5 years - so if you wait a before re-applying for the new card you should have no problems.   Remember that you should stay in Canada when your exisitng card expires, and remain in Canada until you receive the new card.
 
Also - do your math correctly - make damn sure you've got 730 days in the past 5 years - it's a moving 5-year window - so be careful with this.  Thinking that because you're only a week short, you only need to wait a week to re-apply could get you in trouble -- because if you are counting on using any time in Canada to count twoards the 730 day requirement, they have to be in the 5 years immediately preceding your application.
 
Will confirm with you tomorrow afternoon.  I have an appt. with an immigration lawyer and I'll ask the question about how one 'falls out of status'.  I don't think you'd be 'out of status' exactly, you'd just be 'in status with an expired PR card'.  That is all.  I'm sure you have nothing to worry about - unless you plan to travel.
 
Remember - time spent out of Canada does not contribute to the 730 days unless you meet specific requirements (working for a CDN company, etc etc...).  Look these up on the CIC site if you have questions.
 
Good luck.


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Citizenship App Sent: December 2012


Posted By: blackpearl
Date Posted: 25 May 2010 at 3:16pm
You should wait until you have 730 days before applying for PR card.
Do not worry about PR card expiring while you are still in Canada. You are still legal.



Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 25 May 2010 at 6:47pm
Ditto, ditto.

Technically you could face a report and removal order process upon approaching the POE if, based on your to-date presence in Canada plus the days remaining until the fifth anniversary of your landing, you cannot possibly meet the residency requirement by that anniversary date. Most reports suggest that unless something else triggers a more intensive level of scrutiny at the POE, with that much time left on your PR card the odds of such an interview, report, and removal order are very unlikely -- again, not likely. So you should be OK.

Especially ditto the don't worry about being in Canada with an expired PR card part. You are still a PR, still in status.

And especially ditto the wait until you calculate 730 days presence in the immediately preceding five years of the date you apply before applying for the PR card renewal, remembering, as Harmonia as pointed out, that as you past the fifth anniversary of landing, those days you were in Canada following landing will no longer count.

Your app to renew the PR card could be subject to a bit higher scrutiny anyway. Yes, by that time you probably would have a good chance of H&C grounds overcoming being short a week . . . but it is not worth chancing it. If you wait, you meet the residency requirement, there is no discretion to reject you. Be sure to document your time in Canada.

Yeah, you cut it pretty close.


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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: off2canada
Date Posted: 25 May 2010 at 8:22pm
Thanks every one for the reply,am pretty much convinced about the 730 days requirement and pR card renewal but at this point I am particularly concerned about the chances of being denied entry at POE ( I would be enetring Canada by road from USA) as I will be leaving my job and winding up everthing in my home country.If I am denied entry it will be a disaster for me.
Harmonia I would appreciate if you can check about this with the lawyer you are meeting today and revert.
Would be greatful for replies from other members about this specific topic of being denied entry as this will help me take a call whether I come back to Canada or not
Cheers 


Posted By: Harmonia
Date Posted: 25 May 2010 at 8:33pm
off2canada - my meeting is 1pm Wednesday... couldn't get an appointment for today.
My question to the lawyer is more 'PR-centric' -- just a confirmation that you keep your PR regardless of if your card expires.  There's only 4 ways to lose your PR:  1. become a citizen  2. via removal order  3. deportation and 4. voluntarily giving it up.  
 
As for the leaving and entering... I'm pretty sure you won't have an issue getting in an out until the card expires.  I'm also pretty sure that they don't ask you to prove that you meet the residency obligations every time you show the card.  Given that you're planning on coming in July 2010, the card is not near expiring.  I doubt you'll have any problems.
 
Just be careful when you near the expiry date... and once you pass it - do not leave Canada.  You'd be asking for trouble on re-entry if you did.  Stay here, apply for the new card once you meet the 730 days, and wait for your new card to arrive.
 
BTW - the 730 days is not a fictional number that we've made up - it comes from CIC:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/guides/5445EA.asp - http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/guides/5445EA.asp
 
 


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Citizenship App Sent: December 2012


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 25 May 2010 at 11:42pm
Largely ditto, assuming you return to and enter Canada this year. Even next year . . . recognizing though that the closer you get to your anniversary date, the more it might (but not necessarily) arise as an issue.

You have almost 730 days left in the first five year period, so even though technically you are in breach of the residency obligation it is not by much at all, and not obviously so, so the odds of that becoming an issue crossing the border this summer are very, very small.

The more you know, though, usually that means the better prepared you can be to situations as they arise.

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: off2canada
Date Posted: 26 May 2010 at 11:22am

Really appreciate quick replies from everyone,I am trying my level best to enter canada before 1st July 2010 but seems very unlikely,it could be anywhere upto 7th July so only cause of concern now is any issues that might crop up at POE,as rightly mentioned by dpenabill,gathering as much info can help face the situation in a better way.

Thanks again for your quick replies

cheers



Posted By: manjeet
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2010 at 6:11am
you must enter canada before 2nd july, otherwise you will not be allowed to enter canada at any of POE

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M S BATH --A0R-DECEMBER 2004


Posted By: IslandGirl
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2010 at 2:11am
That is not true!
With an unexpired PR card you cannot be denied entry to Canada - period!
Even if it is 1 day away from expiry & you've not spent 1 day in Canada - they still have to let you in.
They *can* write you up for failing to meet the residency obligation, and then allow you in to file an appeal.
If you are truly coming back to Canada to stay and it looks like you'll be short a week - don't sweat it.
Get here ASAP, you cannot be denied at the POE - period (well, unless you're on the run for murdering someone, but - you know what I mean).

Wait until you have the 730 days in (for sure, not close - maybe even give yourself a few extra weeks) - the 5 year period that they look back on for renewal is 5 years from the date on the renewal application. NOT 5 yrs from when you first received the card. The "first" 5 year period is for going forward to determine if you are able to meet the requirement - and if you're only going to be like a week shy, you shouldn't have any issues.

Originally posted by manjeet manjeet wrote:

you must enter canada before 2nd july, otherwise you will not be allowed to enter canada at any of POE


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Used to be known here as "feb7" - there's no doubt to my gender this way
http://tinyurl.com/ydsvlx4 - My previous profile


Posted By: off2canada
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2010 at 9:51am

Well, the replies here don't make my life easier anymore, at the moment I am trying to enter Canada before 1 July say by 22nd June and then stay there for couple of weeks before I come back to my home country for about a week to wind up the things,this way on my re-entry I won't have any issues at POE since I would be out for less than 1095,do u think when I come back after a week will there be any issues???



Posted By: off2canada
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2010 at 1:14pm
Also would like to know how can I prove my physical presence in Canada,immediately on re-entry besides my passport as I intend to enter by road (car) and I understand that normally they don't stamp the PP at POE,pls suggest???


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2010 at 2:13pm
The odds of being examined for meeting the residency requirement this summer, given a PR card still valid into 2011, is slight -- but especially so if you are entering by car. Really slight. So slight it really is not worth worrying much about.

If, per chance, they did ask questions related to meeting the residency requirement, personally I'd be inclined to be "surprised" (and, honestly, I would be! very surprised) and say something to the effect (again, if by remote chance it was to come up) that you are pretty sure you have met the requirement but will have to get your records to reconstruct actual documentation . . . with as much time left as you have, you would have to have said something or have something else pop up on your record to induce a CBSA officer to take the time to do a residency inadmissibility report, and that something would probably have to be pretty substantial. (If you are actually outside meeting the residency requirement, it is probably of little comfort to know that they must allow you entry anyway . . . since an appeal will only delay the end result unless you can come up with a convincing H&C argument . . . but again, the odds of having this happen with well over a year of validity left on your PR card is remote.)

Do not delay of course.

It sounds like you live in the States -- if you are an American, and will be crossing by car, that reduces the odds of a residency inquiry even more. One slight caveat: if it is obvious that you are "moving" to Canada, you might want to not do it that way the first time you cross, but wait until the second trip to be visibly "moving" . . . when the likely question might be along the lines "when were you last in Canada?" and you can say "ten days ago" (or so).

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: IslandGirl
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2010 at 2:10am
There are lots of ways to prove you were in Canada.
They may not stamp your passport, but I can almost guarantee you it was swiped

Originally posted by off2canada off2canada wrote:

Also would like to know how can I prove my physical presence in Canada,immediately on re-entry besides my passport as I intend to enter by road (car) and I understand that normally they don't stamp the PP at POE,pls suggest???


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Used to be known here as "feb7" - there's no doubt to my gender this way
http://tinyurl.com/ydsvlx4 - My previous profile


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2010 at 3:29am
My passport has not been swiped once entering Canada since I became a PR . . . all trips (have to look at my log to count them . . . half dozen or so) were land crossing via the States though. My passport was always swiped going into the States, but again, not once yet coming in.

But yes, there are many ways to document actual presence in Canada.

And many ways for CBSA or CIC to identify absences from Canada . . . or at least raise inferences of probable presence, probable absence.

Off2Canada's dilemma, though, is being on the margin with not much time in Canada at all, and the equation will not change again until acquiring 730 days within five years, and then only by the number of days he staying in Canada in excess of 730 days. Thus, while entitled to enter Canada, technically a residency breach inadmissibility report followed by a removal order could be given, and if given, the long run outcome is probable enforcement of the removal order and the time spent in Canada during the appeal process would not count toward residency . . . the goods news, again, is that it is extremely unlikely that is going to happen if entry is made this summer, not with as much time left on the PR card as off2canada has.

-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: IslandGirl
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2010 at 4:29am
If I were a betting woman, I'd be betting that Canada knows when your passport was swiped going into the States, which means - if you were in the States, you weren't in Canada.
....yes, I know - you can just "say" you were there for the day and in reality be gone for 6 months - I'm not sure I would risk that.

Even ages ago when I would drive across, and they would ask when the last time I was in Canada - if I forgot about a trip - sometimes they would remind me - they knew I'd been there.

I think we can all agree that the US & Canada share information and a fair bit of it, what we don't know is exactly "what", and even what they are sharing today - could change tomorrow.

Sorry - I just get annoyed as hell when I read through forums (esp about citizenship, but also about faking residency for PR) and people are pretty well just discussing ways to scam the system.

Ditto for reading through cases on CanLii about the same things.
Some people seem to want all of the benefits of living in Canada with none of the work & responsibilities. They rent a cheap apartment, get utilities, etc in their name - and then have a friend live there & pay the bills. They stay long enough to get their SIN, PR & health card and then they bugger off to "home", only returning when they need or want something from Canada, while not paying any taxes or contributing to the economy.

Carp like that just p!sses me right the he!! off, especially since many of us are "not" scammers and really do want to live in Canada.

I wonder sometimes if anybody remembers the words of JFK, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" (that's not verbatim, but it's close - I wasn't born yet when he said it) - but that's what I think of every time I read about someone wanting to know what Canada is going to do for them and that's all they care about. Someone's tax dollars are paying that CCTB & UCTB, medical, etc - and if you're not here working, adding to the economy - then you're a drain.

I'm not talking people who are unable to work - I'm talking people who work "back home" or abroad in general who prefer it because they aren't paying taxes - but they make damn sure they get whatever money and services they feel Canada "owes" them.

Sorry - off on a rant, I'm tired, it's getting late & I went waaaayyyy off topic here.

I realize that is not what the OP was asking about, nor is it his/her intent.
I do stick by what I said before though - if you hurry up & get here - I'd almost with 99.9% certainly promise you that there would be no issues at the POE.

Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:

My passport has not been swiped once entering Canada since I became a PR . . . all trips (have to look at my log to count them . . . half dozen or so) were land crossing via the States though. My passport was always swiped going into the States, but again, not once yet coming in.

But yes, there are many ways to document actual presence in Canada.

And many ways for CBSA or CIC to identify absences from Canada . . . or at least raise inferences of probable presence, probable absence.

Off2Canada's dilemma, though, is being on the margin with not much time in Canada at all, and the equation will not change again until acquiring 730 days within five years, and then only by the number of days he staying in Canada in excess of 730 days. Thus, while entitled to enter Canada, technically a residency breach inadmissibility report followed by a removal order could be given, and if given, the long run outcome is probable enforcement of the removal order and the time spent in Canada during the appeal process would not count toward residency . . . the goods news, again, is that it is extremely unlikely that is going to happen if entry is made this summer, not with as much time left on the PR card as off2canada has.


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Used to be known here as "feb7" - there's no doubt to my gender this way
http://tinyurl.com/ydsvlx4 - My previous profile


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2010 at 2:59pm
It appears obvious that a great deal of info is shared between Canada and the U.S., far more than they let on, but I doubt that what pops up on the CBSA officer's monitor at the Canada PIL, based only on the license plate of the car (since at that point they have not scanned a passport) results in a display of any American data. And even if one is referred inside to secondary, I don't think, at that stage, even with one's ID (usually passport) scanned into the system, it displays U.S. information other than security related stuff . . . TECS/NCIC criminal record and such.

What they could see if they made specific, additional queries into their databases and shared info databases I do not know.

In the not too distant past: I was a flagpole sort for many years; I never overstayed, but spent way more time on the Canadian side than I did at "home" (as in more months a year total in Canada than in the U.S.) -- I had a secondary, recreational residence I rented in Canada for nearly 8 years -- all prior to my wife and I deciding to settle on one side of the border (the better side eh), and I spent quite a bit of time in secondary over the years. While it was obvious to them that I was spending a large portion of the year in Canada (and I was indeed often reporting, at the PIL, that I planned to stay several months, depending of course on my actual plans as in sometimes I really did plan to stay just a day or weeks), if they had a record of all my exits from Canada into the States (and I was almost always traveling by car, a car registered to me -- and they do scan the license plates almost always going both ways) they would have put the hammer down on me a long time ago (they came close a few times over the years, issuing me short term visitor records and giving me strenuous admonitions about how much time I was spending on the Canadian side of the border).

Of course things have continued to change at the border, the level of scrutiny is way up and going up, up, up. We are planning a holiday soon for the Eastern end of Lake Ontario, spending some time in the 1000 Islands area, and in assessing possible boat tours, we noticed that the Canadian companies have had to significantly change their procedures and schedules to accommodate the increased immigration scrutiny for tours that include any U.S. stops (such as Clayton, NY, or Boldt Castle). One can assume that the increasing scrutiny and enhanced technology (been about two years now since the big upgrades done on both side of the border) does include more exchange/sharing of information between the U.S. and Canada -- but again, I very much doubt that a Canadian PIL officer sees U.S. entry info, at least not routinely.

As far as those who "land" as a PR but who delay their actual move to Canada for a time, well that is part of how the system works and in large part this is deliberate -- the government recognizes that many people who intend to immigrate into Canada permanently cannot necessarily just wrap up all their affairs in their home country to permanently relocate in Canada upon receiving a PR visa which may be valid for only a few months. A new PR is, quite literally, given up to three years before having to settle in Canada. Off2canada, for example, just cut this a little too close for comfort . . . although, again, I think off2canada will be fine making the move this year with nearly enough time left to meet the 730 day requirement (and unlike the 1095 days "residing" requirement for citizenship, actually the 730 day residency obligation for PRs is relatively soft, meaning that it is not a hard and fast number and even POE officers have full discretion to allow a PR into Canada, without issuing a report for breach of the requirement, even though technically the PR does not meet the 730 days threshold).

There is, of course, a fair bit of scamming going on, and that is in large part what makes it so difficult for everyone else, but I don't see a new PR's delayed real move to Canada as part of that problem.

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: off2canada
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2010 at 1:33pm
Thanks everyone for their valuable feedback,lately I have been keeping very busy,trying to wind up things in my home country so that I can enter Canada asap before 1st July,shall keep in touch with the forum as and when I get time,once again everyone's effort much appreciated.
cheers


Posted By: off2canada
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2010 at 5:01am
Hello folks, I am back on the forum but now I have a new query.It is taking a bit too long to wind up my job and other stuff in my home country, as mentioned in my previous posts I had last left Canada on 1st July 2007 and this year on 1st July I will be out of Canada for 1095 days and can have issues at POE,as things stand today I don't forsee myself entering Canada(for good) in next few weeks.Do you think to beat the 1095 days deadline,is it a good idea that I come to Canada before 1st July,stay there for couple of weeks and then come back to my home country to finish off my work here and then return to Canada for good,pls advise any problems/issues which can crop up.
cheers


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2010 at 4:45am
The margins here are incremental and the probabilities laden with many possibilities depending on many, many factors, some you have control over, many you do not (demeanor of CBSA officer at POE for example). One might easily say "yes" that should better the odds . . . but . . . well, simply, there are too many variables to say such a thing with any degree of confidence.

You have pushed the envelope. The odds are probably still in your favor, but certainly no sure bet.

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: off2canada
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 7:57am
Hello everyone,
In continuation of my earlier posts on the subject,I entered Canada on 25th June 2010 after an absence of almost 3 yrs.I entered by road from USA and was questioned at POE for my absence but they let us (me and my family) IN by just informing that we need to maintain residency obligation.
As luck would have it,immediately after we reached Canada I got the news of my mother falling ill and had to return(inc my family) to my parent country on 27th June 2010.I have since not returned to Canada as my mother is still undergoing treatment (for Cancer) which I have been told by doctors will continue till Feb 2011.While I was in my home country,I also underwent a surgery and was advised rest and not to travel.Since I had given up my job I am doing temporary job to sustain myself and would like to return to Canada as soon as my mother's treatment is through.Do you think I can be denied entry at the POE,even if I show them the proof of my and my mother's sickenss.(it is quite evident that I have not met the residency obligation).I need to know what can be the best way out for me,as I desperately want to return to Canada(my PR card is valid till June 2012).If I try I can surely get a job in my home country.Will it be a wise decision to forget my PR status and stay here or is still there any hope left...need sincere advice from experienced members like PMM/dpenabill/Islandgirl.
Thanks


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 2:42am
Reason for continued absence does not weigh much unless you have established strong ties and/or H & C grounds for staying in Canada.

You cannot be denied entry. You can, however, be issued a removal order in which case time in Canada following the entry will not count toward meeting the residency obligation.

Difficult to predict whether or not you will indeed be "examined" regarding meeting the residency obligation upon any given entry into Canada, but it appears (something of a guess here) that your risk is quite high. Very, very difficult to discern the practical risks involved; for example, a PIL officer may note the summer 2010 visit and from that assume sufficent presence in Canada to not refer you to secondary; or, the PIL officer may immediately see a notation about residency obligation concerns and thus summarily refer you to secondary for a residency examination, but even if there is no immediate notation as such the PIL may still simply refer you to secondary. How it goes with the CBSA officer you meet with in secondary can also vary.

Bottom line, though, yes, you appear to be at substantial risk for a residency obligation examination and could very well face removal proceedings. If you elect to try to return to Canada (and of course the sooner the better), best to have looked at all the possible H & C arguments you could muster on your behalf and be prepared to present them.

How it will really go, as a practical matter, I really have no clue. I wish more people who went through residency examinations at a POE, including those who as a result faced removal for failing to meet the residency obligation, reported more often at this site.

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: Harmonia
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 2:55pm
Dpen -- I agree, it would be very good to see who's been stopped at the border for PRD (Permanent Residency Determination).  I haven't seen or heard much of anything along those lines.  I think anyone with questionable status is scared to death of the results & therefore do their best not to put themselves in that situation.   There are several others that have left Canada, and are now afraid to come back, for fear of the on-the-spot PRD.

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Citizenship App Sent: December 2012


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 10:35pm
Have seen more and more reports of PRs being referred to secondary upon seeking entry to Canada.

During my last entry I was asked more questions than in a half dozen previous entries combined, but still at the PIL with no referral to secondary.

Still, it appears that even for PRs the level of scrutiny at the POE is part of the increasing scrutiny at border trend.

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: ProudOne
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:


Still, it appears that even for PRs the level of scrutiny at the POE is part of the increasing scrutiny at border trend.


Shhh......PR Hunting season is open...   ;)



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