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I am curious... I would like to know.

Printed From: Canada Immigration and Visa Discussion Forum
Category: Canada Immigration Topics
Forum Name: Family Class Sponsorship
Forum Description: A review of current sponsorship programs (permanent residence) promoting the reunion in Canada of close relatives from abroad.
URL: https://secure.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10875
Printed Date: 05 Jul 2020 at 2:08am


Topic: I am curious... I would like to know.
Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Subject: I am curious... I would like to know.
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2012 at 12:50pm
Hi everyone!

I couldn't find any to delete the posts I made and want to close my account on this site for good.




Replies:
Posted By: canvis2006
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2012 at 6:51pm
So you're not "officially" married yet? You say you will have a wedding in January 2013. The absence of a marriage certificate must be a reason, because if there is no wedding there can;t be a certificate.

CIC does not like proxy marriages, or marriages over the phone/internet, as it causes them to think it is not real marriage...

But yeah, good luck for the rest of the process.



Posted By: computergeek
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2012 at 9:58pm
Living together for a year qualifies as "common-law".  There is a legal right not to marry in Canadian jurisprudence.  Thus statements that because they are not "officially married" their relationship is suspect is improper.

Note that a hearing before IAD is de novo and new evidence (including evidence they have married) may be submitted to the tribunal.



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FSW applied 6/09, denied (med inadmissible) 12/11. JR leave granted 7/12, discontinued 9/12. Spousal app PPR 9/12. Landed 13 October 2012


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2012 at 4:58am
**erased**


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2012 at 4:59am
.....................


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2012 at 7:22am
.................erasing.......


Posted By: computergeek
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2012 at 1:48pm
Without looking at the electronic case notes it is difficult for anyone to know why the VO rejected the application.  However the grounds that the relationship is not genuine and was entered into to obtain status is a common grounds for such rejections.

So you had a legal civil wedding in September 2011 and will have a religious ceremonial wedding in January 2013?  The only thing that matters to CIC is the civil wedding.

You are fortunate to have a good attorney.  CIC visa officer's can and do make mistakes.  The IAD decisions are filled  with such cases.  A good attorney will be your advocate and explain to the IAD tribunal why yours is a genuine relationship.  The decision of the visa officer can be entirely set aside.

Sadly, this process does take considerable time.




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FSW applied 6/09, denied (med inadmissible) 12/11. JR leave granted 7/12, discontinued 9/12. Spousal app PPR 9/12. Landed 13 October 2012


Posted By: paparazzi
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2012 at 10:41am
Sorry Dani but only in just few posts you have confused all of us.
First you say:
"We will mail him the wedding photos and video later on( we plan to have a wedding in January 2013)."
and then you say "
no no... we got married last year on September 29th, 2011. we just had our one year anniversary recently in Sept :)"

That means right away a red flag for the immigration too. I just don't want to say anything else but be honest and try to keep the same story without changing it. Immigration doesn't like lies.

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GO Nucks GO


Posted By: MajidS
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2012 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by paparazzi paparazzi wrote:

Sorry Dani but only in just few posts you have confused all of us.
First you say:
"We will mail him the wedding photos and video later on( we plan to have a wedding in January 2013)."
and then you say "
no no... we got married last year on September 29th, 2011. we just had our one year anniversary recently in Sept :)"

That means right away a red flag for the immigration too. I just don't want to say anything else but be honest and try to keep the same story without changing it. Immigration doesn't like lies.
 
I agree. You will notice CIC asks many of the same questions again and again across their different forms. What they are doing is a technique called "Probing" in surveys, where the same question re-phrased to look for a disconnect between facts. For eg., one place you said your name is spelled Dani and then at another it is spelled Danie.
 
If your facts are all mixed up in your application, the VO will definitely refuse it based on it all being a lie. The basic rule is if you give the VO just one reason to doubt any of your information, the VO then doubts the entire application. You have to "get your facts straight" and always "tell the same story".


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2012 at 1:47pm
....................





Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2012 at 1:50pm
...............




Posted By: computergeek
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2012 at 2:39pm
Immigration is intensely stressful, especially when dealing with a rejection.  The key is to try and focus on other things in your life.  I realize this is a bit like trying to ignore an elephant in the room, but it's the only way to remain sane while the process is ongoing.

Visa Officer's do make mistakes, and according to the statistics that CIC just released, they reject 17% of outland applications - that's about 1 out of every 6.

While I'm sure it won't assuage your own pain right now, I've read cases that have gone the other way - where the sponsored person gets to Canada and then just gives up on the sponsor.  Such cases are sad and they do happen, unfortunately.  Thus, there is a complex balance to be struck here and sometimes there will be mistakes either way.

It will take time, but you can convince the IAD tribunal that your relationship is genuine.



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FSW applied 6/09, denied (med inadmissible) 12/11. JR leave granted 7/12, discontinued 9/12. Spousal app PPR 9/12. Landed 13 October 2012


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 10:43am
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Posted By: computergeek
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 3:08pm
You may request that your spouse be allowed to attend the IAD hearing in person.  They don't have to allow it, but will do so if you can convince them that it is important to your case.  But in your instance it sounds like the VO made a legal error - it doesn't have to do with the genuineness of your relationship, it has to do with your eligibility to sponsor.

You are right.  As a Canadian citizen, you do not have to be in Canada to sponsor your spouse.  If the reason for rejection cited this as grounds for refusal it is invalid in law.  I suspect the waiting times for IAD hearings are shorter in SK than they are in ON - people talk about waiting 2+ years for an IAD hearing in Toronto.  The good thing here is that the tribunal (IAD person hearing your case) can actually evaluate the legitimacy of your relationship as well and issue a decision on all the issues in your case - e.g., that you are eligible to sponsor and your relationship is genuine.

With such a decision, the case will be assigned to a new VO.  Last year they started sending successful appeals to CPP-O, so your case may go there instead of back to the visa office that rejected your application in the first place.  With a positive decision on your eligibility and on genuineness of the relationship I'd be rather surprised if your application were not successful when it gets sent back for further processing.



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FSW applied 6/09, denied (med inadmissible) 12/11. JR leave granted 7/12, discontinued 9/12. Spousal app PPR 9/12. Landed 13 October 2012


Posted By: pmm
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 4:49pm
Hi


Originally posted by computergeek computergeek wrote:

You may request that your spouse be allowed to attend the IAD hearing in person.  They don't have to allow it, but will do so if you can convince them that it is important to your case.  But in your instance it sounds like the VO made a legal error - it doesn't have to do with the genuineness of your relationship, it has to do with your eligibility to sponsor.You are right.  As a Canadian citizen, you do not have to be in Canada to sponsor your spouse.  If the reason for rejection cited this as grounds for refusal it is invalid in law.  I suspect the waiting times for IAD hearings are shorter in SK than they are in ON - people talk about waiting 2+ years for an IAD hearing in Toronto.  The good thing here is that the tribunal (IAD person hearing your case) can actually evaluate the legitimacy of your relationship as well and issue a decision on all the issues in your case - e.g., that you are eligible to sponsor and your relationship is genuine.With such a decision, the case will be assigned to a new VO.  Last year they started sending successful appeals to CPP-O, so your case may go there instead of back to the visa office that rejected your application in the first place.  With a positive decision on your eligibility and on genuineness of the relationship I'd be rather surprised if your application were not successful when it gets sent back for further processing.



1. Although a Canadian citizen can sponsor a spouse while residing overseas, if the sponsor can't demonstrate that they will be returning to Canada once a COPR the application can be refused under 130(2).
2, I suggest that you search CanLII with the search 130(2) and dismissed.

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PMM


Posted By: MajidS
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 9:30am
Originally posted by computergeek computergeek wrote:

... As a Canadian citizen, you do not have to be in Canada to sponsor your spouse.  If the reason for rejection cited this as grounds for refusal it is invalid in law....
 
I have to disagree a bit on that. From what I know, the visa officer has the legal right to reject any Canadian citizen's application if they doubt about the couple's genuine intention of living in Canada. I can speak from experience of a Canadian citizen buddy of mine (been a citizen for over 20 years) who was fully living his life in Canada. They refused his application to sponsor his wife because the officer was not convinced they were going to live in Canada. All this because my buddy took a few months off every year to spend time with his wife overseas and the fact that he was a contractor and kept jumping jobs every year. All the officer has to do is say he is not convinced the couple are going to be "Canadian after the application is approved" by living forever in Canada.
 
 


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 10:49am
..............


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 10:53am
.................


Posted By: computergeek
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 4:38pm
I don't have the VO's decision in front of me, so I have based my observation on two things: (1) the OP's claim that the VO indicated she had to be in Canada to sponsor (not true for Citizens); and (2) that her attorney has told her the decision was wrong in law.  These are consistent with her being told she was ineligible to sponsor because she was not in Canada.  I agree that the VO has the right to decide her plan to return was (on a balance of probabilities) not credible, but I'd be shocked that an attorney would describe that decision as "wrong in law'.

Dani, the point here is that the specific language of the denial is what is important here.  If the VO indicated she or he did not find your plan to return to Canada credible, that's allowed by law.  If the VO stated you were ineligible to sponsor because you were not in Canada, that decision would be wrong in law.

It's speculative on all of our parts to comment with respect to a rejection that we've not reviewed directly.  You should rely upon your attorney to represent you well in this case.





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FSW applied 6/09, denied (med inadmissible) 12/11. JR leave granted 7/12, discontinued 9/12. Spousal app PPR 9/12. Landed 13 October 2012


Posted By: computergeek
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by MajidS MajidS wrote:

Originally posted by computergeek computergeek wrote:

... As a Canadian citizen, you do not have to be in Canada to sponsor your spouse.  If the reason for rejection cited this as grounds for refusal it is invalid in law....
 
I have to disagree a bit on that. From what I know, the visa officer has the legal right to reject any Canadian citizen's application if they doubt about the couple's genuine intention of living in Canada. I can speak from experience of a Canadian citizen buddy of mine (been a citizen for over 20 years) who was fully living his life in Canada. They refused his application to sponsor his wife because the officer was not convinced they were going to live in Canada. All this because my buddy took a few months off every year to spend time with his wife overseas and the fact that he was a contractor and kept jumping jobs every year. All the officer has to do is say he is not convinced the couple are going to be "Canadian after the application is approved" by living forever in Canada.


That really would be a different rejection than what I was attempting to describe. Let me clarify:

"If the VO indicated the reason for rejection was that you were ineligible to sponsor your spouse because you were not in Canada at the time the application was filed or the decision made, it would be incorrect in law."

The rejection you describe would be "I am not convinced it is your intention to return to Canada if your spouse is granted a permanent resident visa."  I would not describe that as "wrong in law".

Of course, regardless of the reason for the decision, the IAD tribunal is de novo and may re-examine all of the evidence for the OP's case.  I certainly hope they come to a reasonable conclusion given the facts of the case.



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FSW applied 6/09, denied (med inadmissible) 12/11. JR leave granted 7/12, discontinued 9/12. Spousal app PPR 9/12. Landed 13 October 2012


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2012 at 4:58am
....................


Posted By: computergeek
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2012 at 11:49am
I hope for your husband's sake you find someone to help you with your personal feelings in this matter.  I suspect you are suffering from situational depression, but killing yourself would just make things much worse for your family and your husband - and CIC certainly will not suffer.

The only way you can win here is to allow your lawyer to do his job and let him beat CIC. Visa officers are humans, they are heavily overworked and they can and do make mistakes.  The purpose of the IAD is to identify and rectify those mistakes.  From what I can tell, IAD appeals in SK are reasonably fast.

In the meantime, try not to focus on them.  Take care of yourself.  Focus on you and your husband and use this to strengthen your relationship.



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FSW applied 6/09, denied (med inadmissible) 12/11. JR leave granted 7/12, discontinued 9/12. Spousal app PPR 9/12. Landed 13 October 2012


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2012 at 1:08pm
I agree with computergeek.

Please try to get some help. The immigration process is largely beyond your control now. Please take care of yourself.

In the meantime, I have an acquaintance here (friend and colleague of my wife) who married a man in Morocco and whose application was denied and who appealed. It was hard. It took a lot longer than was convenient, with a lot of anxiety in the meantime, but eventually IAD reversed the VO's decision. They are now together here.

Unfortunately, the level of scrutiny given applicants from some countries is higher than that given others. Nothing you can do about that. Best thing to do is take care of yourself, be prepared for some delays, some inconveniences, some setbacks, but remain determined to weather the storms and march on.

Unfortunately, the level of skepticism in some VOs, regarding the intent to return to Canada issue, is greater. And unfortunately the issue is not your real, subjective intent, but rather to what extent has the applicant submitted sufficient proof of a plan to return to Canada. Your lawyer is the best source of information and opinion regarding what you have submitted and what can be submitted while the appeal is pending, so the best you can do is rely on your lawyer.

Hang in there.

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: Peaches14
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2012 at 11:16am
Hi Dani,

I believe you said you were a Canadian Citizen at birth.  Do you mind me asking how long you lived in Canada following your birth or how long you lived in Morocco or outside of Canada since your birth?


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 12:25pm
...................


Posted By: blondie1216
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 1:37pm
Hey Dani, there should be no rejection for not being in Canada as long as you can provide evidence that you plan to move as soon as your hubbys papers are done. You do not have to be in Canada during the processing unless your a PR aNd you stated that you are a citizen by birth.

As for proof of relationship.. Have you ordered notes? They can shed light and maybe you needed more proof. We can't tell you unless you know for sure but the good thing is.. You have a lawyer that will help you through the process.


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Everything in it's time.


Posted By: blondie1216
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by ~*Dani*~ ~*Dani*~ wrote:

I am white Canadian..I born in Saskatoon, SK to Canadian parents and stayed in Saskatoon all of my life. my mom`s side is my great great great grandparents came to Canada in 1912 from Romania and my father`s side came to New France(now Quebec) back in late  1600`s from France.   soooo....I am 100% Canadian citizen. I have Saskatchewan Birth Certificate and Canadian passeport. 

I came to Morocco to be with my husband was in August 2011. so I`ve been here for a year.  


i am very depressed.. the Embassy and VO destroyed me emotionally big time. I lost interest in everything such like doing laundry, cleaning the room, and eating food. I have absolutely no interest in that.I let it slide away. not interested.

my husband encouraged me to forget about what VO said in the letter but I wont, i am obsessed about getting a visa for my husband want us together in Canada(Saskatoon) and have family..   well.. our future plans is ruined of this..I have no hopes, nothing.

it destroyed me. I am very skeptical about the appeal process, the IAD and the lawyer.. I am pessimistic about this and have no hopes...It is end of world for me, really.

Did your provide proof of intent to return to Canada? 


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Everything in it's time.


Posted By: Peaches14
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 1:39pm



Posted By: Peaches14
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 1:59pm
I agree with Blondie and I agree with some of the latest replies regarding leaving the rest of this fight up to your lawyer.  On the upside of this situation you are with the one you love.  If the relationship is genuine and you really want this bad enough then you need to get out of this state of mind you are in and put your confidence in your lawyer and your faith in God.  I see more positives than negatives in your situation.


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 5:38pm
.............


Posted By: blondie1216
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2012 at 8:07pm
If your lawyer says you have a strong case, then believe him and try to relax. You journey may be longer than expected but you will get there. I know you feel like dying but being with your hubby is what matters at this moment. 

It will work out and maybe sooner than you think.


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Everything in it's time.


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2012 at 6:50am
....................


Posted By: Peaches14
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2012 at 8:26am
Hi Dani,

I was the same way about my husband and my emails to one another and didn't send them with my original application.  After the file transfer, once I stepped outside the box and took a look at everything I sent, I realized that it was the emails that displayed how and when our meeting took place, how the relationship developed and how strong our feelings for one another grew.  I ended up sending them in a further submission and was really glad I did.  Forget about personal and think convince. 


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 6:53am
.............


Posted By: Peaches14
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 8:34am
Hi Dani,

We haven't heard anything since the file transfer but I believe it has probably been the best thing in this case as my husband and I had a very short courtship and got married within 4 months of meeting.  For us it really wasn't about what we built together as we are both 50 years of age, but more what we need from each other to enjoy the remainder of our lives and although our countries are at opposite ends of the world we are so similar in so many ways, it is incredible.  By the time we heard the file was transferred which was seven months from the time the application was submitted, we had accumulated a great deal of evidence which proves without a doubt the genuineness of this relationship, which I sent in to the local CIC in two packages about one month apart. 

Dani, the emails are the most important part of this package as they show timing, emotion, day-to-day life, and future plans. 

My husband and I likely have several more months of waiting which is horrible for him because he cannot work and he was a very social person in his home country and he doesn't have any close friends here but me and my family.  Furthermore he loves his country and would like me to be with him there but I have so much here and I am not quite ready to make that move unless I really have to.  We have alternative options such as pulling the application and starting one from the outside or he can go home and sponsor me from his country which by now shouldn't cause any dramas as we have lived together for almost a year.  However we don't have any financial issues regardless of him not working and we are together which is what we have always wanted and we have already waited out the inland process for 8 months.

In all honesty, after all the horror stories I have read off these sites I am feeling really good about our situation.  My husband's visitor permit is good until July of 2013.  Our local CIC has a waiting time of 4-6 months so we need to wait it out and regardless of what the decision is my husband and I will always be together, here or there it doesn't matter.  If it doesn't work out here I will definitely give up what I have here to be with him in his country.  I can't do what others are doing, living apart from their spouse.  My spouse is my best friend, my lover and the one willing to do and sacrifice anything for me.  I look so forward to going to sleep and waking up with him, seeing him when I get home from work and spending our evenings and weekends together.  There is no way I want to live apart from him and race home to see him on skype. 


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 12:00pm
..............


Posted By: Peaches14
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 1:49pm
You are definitely right, the waiting seems endless and additionally the immigration process in itself is demeaning and breaks a person down to the point that they have little to no self esteem.  After feeling so hopeless and helpless we all begin to second guess ourselves and are left wondering how falling in love and wanting to begin a life with our beloved partner could ever turn into something so sinister. 

I know you are hurting Dani and I am sorry.  I think you are probably more angry with your Country than anything.  If you are going to follow through on your appeal and you really love your husband then you need to initiate the process and move on with your daily life.  As you stated, life is short.

Take care.  I will be here now and again if you need to talk.


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 6:55am
...................


Posted By: Peaches14
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 8:19am
Hi Dani,

I am not aware of the statistics regarding successful appeals but what I do know is that the more evidence of a solid relationship you have the better your chances are of winning the appeal.  I can tell that you love your husband but it may not be you they have the doubts about.  Definitely the short courtship was a trigger.  There are a number of things they are checking and I am guessing they have a checklist.  It is our responsibility to prove the genuineness of the relationship as well as our goals of residing in Canada with the inclusion of setting up with family and employment opportunities.  Do you mind me asking what your family background is.  I know you are Canadian but what is the second language you speak.    


Posted By: ~*Dani*~
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 12:19pm
..............


Posted By: Peaches14
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 10:14am
Hi Dani,

Wow, very interesting indeed.  I don't have anything quite that interesting about my family background.  My father's grandparents brought their family here from Sicily to Ontario although my grandfather never spoke Italian in the family home.  The descendants on my mother's side are English and I don't have any history about them except that they were from Burlington, Ontario and eventually moved to Hamilton.  I only speak and write English fluently although I enjoyed French class very much when I was in school.  I was 18 when I got married the first time and far too young I must say and it didn't last long.  I had one child from that union and he is the only one, now 30.  I married a second time in 1998 to a man that was 17 years younger than me and he was German.  He and his family were living in Hamilton when I met him.  I understand some of the language because the family spoke it all of the time as it was easier for them.  I was with this man for 9 years until his sudden death in 2006.  My heart literally broke into two pieces and I was lost for many years.  If it wasn't for the internet I would never have met and fell in love with my current husband who is Australian. I took his last name and didn't think twice about it. 

Since the shock of the death of my second husband I have never taken anything for granted.  I realize how important it is to be happy and to appreciate family and friends and to do the things in life I have always dreamed about.  I used to be a very serious person but all I want now is to be happy and live out my life with the man I believe is my soul mate.  I feel like the luckiest person alive to have what I have. 

I wouldn't say my life has been at all boring, as a matter of fact, it would be an interesting read but what I really want in this life is inner peace.  I don't want to harbour any bad feelings about this immigration process I just want to get moving in one direction or another and begin living.  I am not interested in any new challenges as I don't want to lose the goodness from my soul.  

I don't want you to be sad or scared.  Everything will work out in the end.  You just got off to the wrong start.  Tell me more about your second language.  I worked a second job years ago as a special needs worker with an adult child that had down syndrome.  He couldn't communicate verbally but did know sign language.  I considered learning it but was already working a full-time and part-time job and taking college courses at night, so didn't pursue it.





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