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Operational Bulletin 407 - Residence Questionnaire

Printed From: Canada Immigration and Visa Discussion Forum
Category: Canada Immigration Topics
Forum Name: Canadian Citizenship
Forum Description: Commentaries outlining important issues in acquiring Canadian citizenship through naturalization
URL: https://secure.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10287
Printed Date: 16 Jun 2024 at 9:31am


Topic: Operational Bulletin 407 - Residence Questionnaire
Posted By: nwtspam
Subject: Operational Bulletin 407 - Residence Questionnaire
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 1:04pm

Internal CIC Operational Bulletin 407 - May 3, 2012 

Obtained under Access to Information Act by nwtspam

Standardizing the preparation of citizenship grant applications

Background
An Internal Audit of the citizenship program conducted from December 2010 to April 2011 identified a lack of evidence on file to support declared absences and demonstrate the basis for grant decisions. The audit also identified inconsistencies on the type of documentation that is retained on file to demonstrate compliance to legislative and policy requirements.

File preparation is one of the key Read where the implementation of consistent procedures is beneficial and helps ensure the integrity of the citizenship program. Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) officials and citizenship judges both..................................................................................................................................................................

You may view the document at this Google Docs link:
http://docs.google.com/open?id=0By9o70015IRPVXgwRnAyNU9jMjg - http://docs.google.com/open?id=0By9o70015IRPVXgwRnAyNU9jMjg

Read the document at your own risk. Contact CIC call centre for any further information. Thank you Edmonton2011 for uploading the file(s). 



Replies:
Posted By: Glimmer
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 1:23pm
Wow that's good information! Can't wait to read it!


Posted By: Glimmer
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 1:28pm
Also wanted to say thank you to you, nwtspam, for making the access request and obtaining this info. 

Before you can post the docs, can you tell us what insight they provide, if any, into the process and timeframe for dealing with these new RQs?

Thanks again! :)


Posted By: crisp
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by nwtspam nwtspam wrote:

I ask the admin on this forum to allow me to upload PDF files. The documentation will tell the reason for the recent changes of Citizenship Grant Application procedures which *directly related* to the recent spike of RQ handouts.

Documents to upload and some introductions: 

Operational Bulletin 407 - May 3, 2012
Standardizing the preparation of citizenship grant applications

Background
An Internal Audit of the citizenship program conducted from December 2010 to April 2011 identified a lack of evidence on file to support declared absences and demonstrate the basis for grant decisions. The audit also identified inconsistencies on the type of documentation that is retained on file to demonstrate compliance to legislative and policy requirements.

File preparation is one of the key areas where the implementation of consistent procedures is beneficial and helps ensure the integrity of the citizenship program. Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) officials and citizenship judges both..................................................................................................................................................................

- The Residence Questionnaire (CIT 0171)
- New Procedure
- The new File Preparation Templates
- Existing residence and prohibitions cases as of May 7, 2012
- New residence and prohibitions cases on or after May 7, 2012
- Other hearing types

TOO MANY to type. I will upload this internal CIC document (Obtained under the Access to Information Act.) when admin grants me rights to upload files.

NWTS PAM

Hi Newtspam, can you send it to me through a private message?


Posted By: nwtspam
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 1:59pm
Good/Bad news for new applications: Case Processing Centre in Sydney will begin issuing RQ even BEFORE local CIC assessment...

Good: RQ will be part of the normal waiting time
Bad: Will see more RQ requests coming from Sydney CPC

More to come...


Posted By: akella
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by nwtspam nwtspam wrote:

I ask the admin on this forum to allow me to upload PDF files. The documentation will tell the reason for the recent changes of Citizenship Grant Application procedures which *directly related* to the recent spike of RQ handouts.

May be you could just upload an archive to rapidshare.com or any other filesharing website and post the link here? (and you can remove it from there later)


Posted By: crisp
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by akella akella wrote:

Originally posted by nwtspam nwtspam wrote:

I ask the admin on this forum to allow me to upload PDF files. The documentation will tell the reason for the recent changes of Citizenship Grant Application procedures which *directly related* to the recent spike of RQ handouts.

May be you could just upload an archive to rapidshare.com or any other filesharing website and post the link here? (and you can remove it from there later)

Yes, please. Instead of teasing us with the file, upload it at rapidshare.com or email it to me. I've already sent you my email address!


Posted By: nwtspam
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 2:35pm
New applicants who required RQ should provide documents to cover 4 year period immediately before the date of application. 

No longer requesting "from the date you arrive Canada" like in the past.

More to come...


Posted By: Glimmer
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by nwtspam nwtspam wrote:

Good/Bad news for new applications: Case Processing Centre in Sydney will begin issuing RQ even BEFORE local CIC assessment...

Good: RQ will be part of the normal waiting time
Bad: Will see more RQ requests coming from Sydney CPC

More to come...

Part of the normal waiting time? you are giving us hope!! :)


Posted By: nwtspam
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 2:52pm
With your attitude, no.

Learn proper manner when asking people favours. I don't owe you this god damn thing. Star

Originally posted by crisp crisp wrote:

Originally posted by nwtspam nwtspam wrote:

New applicants who required RQ should provide documents to cover 4 year period immediately before the date of application. 

No longer requesting "from the date you arrive Canada" like in the past.

More to come...

Hey dude, post the goddamn thing at rapidshare.com!!! 


Posted By: Glimmer
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 2:52pm
Hey all, I know we are all frothing at the mouth to see these documents, but give nwtspam some breathing room! :)  he/she requested this info weeks ago and for that I am truly grateful! am sure we won't have to wait long.  I'm glad to finally have some explanations... even though they are sounding a little CYA in nature... papering the files but not really changing the outcomes too much.


Posted By: Forestmember
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 2:53pm
nwtspam " I ask the admin on this forum to allow me to upload PDF files. The documentation will tell the reason for the recent changes of Citizenship Grant Application procedures which *directly related* to the recent spike of RQ handouts".

You can send a private message to the moderator of this section, DPENABILL. He may not be able to read every single post on this section of the forum to even see your request. However, if you PM him, he will likely see it as private messages usually pop up.

On a different note, I search google and the CIC site but could not find the document, which may indicate it is not available on the public domain.
Thanks  


Posted By: parkbr
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by nwtspam nwtspam wrote:

New applicants who required RQ should provide documents to cover 4 year period immediately before the date of application. 

No longer requesting "from the date you arrive Canada" like in the past.

More to come...

Hi nwtspam,

I just got an RQ from Sydney and they still ask "from the date you arrive Canada".
=(


Posted By: Glimmer
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by crisp crisp wrote:

Originally posted by Glimmer Glimmer wrote:

Hey all, I know we are all frothing at the mouth to see these documents, but give nwtspam some breathing room! :)  he/she requested this info weeks ago and for that I am truly grateful! am sure we won't have to wait long.  I'm glad to finally have some explanations... even though they are sounding a little CYA in nature... papering the files but not really changing the outcomes too much.

No this guy is a fraud. He doesn't have the doc. He just needs our attention! What an attention whore!

Then I guess you won't be posting in his thread anymore... bye!


Posted By: nwtspam
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 3:04pm
I have the form right in front of me. It is CIT 0171 (04-2012) E.

They ask information since your "arrival date in Canada", but the supporting documents they requested should only cover the "4 year period" immediately before the date of application.

Read very carefully.

nwts pam

Originally posted by parkbr parkbr wrote:

 

Hi nwtspam,

I just got an RQ from Sydney and they still ask "from the date you arrive Canada".
=(


Posted By: nwtspam
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 3:16pm
Nice. Thanks for pushing me away crisp. Everyone clap with me Clap

I will go get some cool air crisp. See you all  in few hours.

Originally posted by crisp crisp wrote:

No you don't, loserboy. You're a troll, just wasting our time. Hey guys, don't listen to this crazy dude. He's an http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=attention+whore - attention whore .


Posted By: akella
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by Glimmer Glimmer wrote:

Originally posted by crisp crisp wrote:

Originally posted by Glimmer Glimmer wrote:

Hey all, I know we are all frothing at the mouth to see these documents, but give nwtspam some breathing room! :)  he/she requested this info weeks ago and for that I am truly grateful! am sure we won't have to wait long.  I'm glad to finally have some explanations... even though they are sounding a little CYA in nature... papering the files but not really changing the outcomes too much.

No this guy is a fraud. He doesn't have the doc. He just needs our attention! What an attention whore!

Then I guess you won't be posting in his thread anymore... bye!

Crisp is obviously corazon from a little bit earlier on this forum (and cocosyr on another immigration forum) - I can see the unmistakable style.

Anyway, nwtspam, thank you for bringing this valuable information here and we are really hoping that you will post the files sometime soon. As you can see, everyone is eagerly waiting. Thanks!


Posted By: hekmeh30
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 3:44pm
hi all, does ANYBODY KNOWS WHETHER THE RQ PRIOR TEST DEPEND ON THE LOCAL OFFICE OR IT IS FROM SYDNEY ALWAYS. AND ALL APPLICATIONS NOW ARE RECEIVING RQ PRIOR TEST, IF NOT WHAT IS THE PERCENTAGE?


Posted By: Forestmember
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 3:45pm
Here is a link to the pre-test RQ form CIT 0171 that nwtspam has been mentioning.
https://rapidshare.com/files/3948603962/Pre-Test_RQ_Form_2012.pdf

Please give credit to akella and not me ( http://www.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10197&title=rq-form-cit-0171-pdf - http://www.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10197&title=rq-form-cit-0171-pdf ).

In the meantime, I am scanning some sources to see if I could get the operational bulletin 407 nwtspam mentioned as we wait for nwtspam to post his/hers.

Thanks everyone


Posted By: EasyRider
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 4:17pm
It looks like this forum doesn't have upload/hosting functionality.


Posted By: CeCe
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by akella akella wrote:

Crisp is obviously corazon from a little bit earlier on this forum (and cocosyr on another immigration forum) - I can see the unmistakable style.


I suspected as much for the past few days (due to the writing style and rude attitude towards DPenabill). Once he started with today's aggressive confrontational tone, I knew it was corazon for sure. I wish DPenabill would block the IP address or something....


Posted By: nwtspam
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 7:23pm
I have sent the PDF to Edmonton2011. He will share with everyone on Google Docs shortly.


Posted By: CeCe
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by nwtspam nwtspam wrote:

I have sent the PDF to Edmonton2011. He will share with everyone on Google Docs shortly.



Thank you nwtspam.


Posted By: akella
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by nwtspam nwtspam wrote:

I have sent the PDF to Edmonton2011. He will share with everyone on Google Docs shortly.

Great! Thank you, nwtspam!


Posted By: Glimmer
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by nwtspam nwtspam wrote:

I have sent the PDF to Edmonton2011. He will share with everyone on Google Docs shortly.

Yay! thank you to both of you :)


Posted By: parkbr
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 8:42pm
Thanks!! =)


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 9:37pm
I too appreciate this, and am looking forward to seeing the entire document.

By the way, I do not know how to upload files here.

Note: My role as moderator is almost entirely spam cop, with some moderating functions relative to abusive posting.

I have no more contact with the owner/administrators of this site than any other participant.

My site permissions allow me to do a few things most participants cannot (suspend users, block IP addresses, hide posts), but they also restrict me in some ways as well; for example, I cannot edit or delete my own posts.

I am not at all familiar with site management or administration functions generally.

Mostly I am just a participant here. My participation here, almost entirely, is merely as one more person posting in the forum, the only substantive difference is the amount of effort, time, study, and research I have put into the grant citizenship process, especially regarding the residency requirement and attendant procedures (RQ, CJ meeting and decision-making, appeals), going back to the previous rendition of this forum in 2009 and before. Indeed, while I occasionally still participate in discussions about family class sponsorships, the only other area I regularly participate in is the preserving PR status discussions.


Also, in my moderator role, some posts from this topic have been moved to the "abusive posts" topic and a warning has been made, although I would not have given a warning if I had read all of these posts first -- as the warning was given, though, I will stand by it and not block participation so long as future posting is appropriate.

-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: SarahBC
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 9:39pm
Hello All,
I just read this 'Standardizing the preparation of citizenship grant applications" and thought that you guys might find it related .
Here is the link:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/audit/cit-program/sec01-eng.asp
The conclusion states:
"

Audit of the Citizenship Program (2.0 Audit Conclusions)

The audit concludes that the overall framework for the management of the delivery of the Citizenship Program is in place and for the most part, key elements of the framework are well understood and operating as intended.

Specifically, the audit revealed that:

  • the governance framework generally met audit expectations;
  • the risk management processes and practices partially met audit expectations; and
  • the internal control framework in place partially met audit expectations.

Management’s attention is required in a number of areas outlined in the next section of this report where detailed observations and recommendations are highlighted in order to strengthen areas of concern."

Cheers,

Sarah


-------------
.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 9:52pm
Without seeing the entire May 3, 2012 Operational Bulletin 407, I have to say that the fact that CIC has not published this online with other operational bulletins is very disconcerting.

This government is continuing their trend to withdraw more and more information from the public sphere. Much of it is public information, information that is not only legally accessible to the public but which has traditionally been readily shared with the public. A similar phenomena is happening relative to information about processing times. Now all the CIC reports is the almost worthless timeline for process 80 percent of cases. Much of the more informative information about timelines is still accessible through the Open Data project, but that is not as easily accessed and not as easy to read and understand. It does appear that the Minister is deliberately erecting hurdles for access to information.

This is particularly disconcerting in the citizenship application process, since there are so many unresolved issues regarding proof of residency, and because CIC has failed to adequately inform PRs of important aspects of the process, and to some extent is still laying traps for the unwary (last I looked,for example, online residency calculator and related online information says that not only do day trips not count as days absent, but they do not need to be disclosed . . . but then thousands are getting a RQ form which is not only demanding declarations of all day trips, but all day trips going back to the very first date of arrival in Canada, which for some applicants is going back many, many years.)

Why isn't the May 3 operational bulletin 407 among those published on the CIC site?

Again, nwtspam, your efforts here are much appreciated.



-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: 700days
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2012 at 10:52pm
Hello All,
 
Two quick questions:
 
1: How can we differentiate that, RQ is sent by Sydeny OR by local centre (eg St Clair, Toronto)? Except, postal stamp on envelop, can we differentiate it's origin?
 
2: RQ from Sydney or RQ from local centre...I understand they are same however, do they have any difference in fate/outcome of application? Like is one is mild/soft/regular procedure/formality or one is hard/poor outcome/zero fate?
 
Thanks


Posted By: nwtspam
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 2:45am
Google Doc link is added to the 1st post.

Thank you Edmonton2011 for the upload. 


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 4:17am
Thank you, again.

Some highlights regarding OB 407:

No surprises. As I had previously opined, no indication of any change in the substantive decision-making process.

The checklist to be used in the processing of the citizenship application now contains a part that must be completed before the test-interview.

In the past, reports indicated disparities between local offices as to whether or not the file had been reviewed much at all prior to the applicant appearing for the test/interview. This is clearly a procedure implemented to bring more uniformity among different offices, and it is also clear that the objective is to require preparation for the interview to "ensure that all [residency] questions can be addressed in the interview."

In particular, this procedure is intended to facilitate the citizenship officer asking "follow-up" questions at the interview, "as needed."

The early RQ procedure is intended to not allow the test to be scheduled for an applicant who has not submitted a response to the RQ. This answers a question some have asked, whether they would scheduled for the test if they do not respond. Looks like no, they will not be. More about effect on timeline below.

"Briefing Memo":

This has been a part of the process all along, it appears, but the one that is part of CP 5 is minimalist and gave no clues as to what really, substantively, went into it (this alludes, in part, to what I have referred to previously as what goes on behind the closed doors practically -- thanks to nwtspam there is a crack in the door and we get to see more of what goes on).

This is as close to a decision there is regarding the response to RQ. There is a template for this. Note: this is what goes to the Citizenship Judge following all processing done by the citizenship officer. As I have said before, no indication of any separate assessment or evaluation of the RQ, just that now the response to early RQ is part of the file to be assessed in due course . . . with the exception that this OB mandates a pre-interview assessment of the file (which clearly applies to all grant citizenship application files, not just those given early RQ), but not as a decision-making step, but rather a preparation for the interview step.

Would like to see "Annex A" which contains the item by item instructions for completing the File Requirements Checklist.

This probably contains many clues as to the criteria CIC is looking at.


Bad news regarding scheduling for the test if given early RQ:

The temporary measures being used to assure that there is a response to the RQ prior to the test being scheduled (see page 5 of OB 407) require a manual deactivation of a hold imposed in GCMS, which is supposed to be done once "the RQ and supporting documents are received at the local CIC and analysed by an officer." In some local offices this could involve a long while. Moreover, it is not clear there this will prevent cases sitting in limbo for a long time where, for whatever reason, the hold has not been manually deactivated. The OB says use of the BF function is "encouraged," not required.

In any event, this part of the new procedure seems prone to, at the least, adding significant time to the timeline in most cases, and perhaps quite a lengthy time in some local offices.

Note regarding submitting response by deadline: If the BF function is utilized, those who fail to submit a response by the deadline might see their cases tagged or given a much longer BF date likely to result in a much longer delay. What I see about this aspect of the process tends to emphasize that it is more important to get the response in by the deadline than it is to be sure to include all documentation.


What we do not learn:

No hint what criteria is employed in deciding who is given RQ. Reference to the appendix in CP 5 suggests that the criteria there is still relevant, but of course reports in immigration forums have strongly indicated that some of this criteria has had far more impact than some other factors. There is nothing to explain why the scope of RQ has been expanded, that is, that a higher percentage of applicants have been getting RQ, which at least appears to have happened.

No hint of what the tipping point might be regarding what are sufficient "indications that not all absences have been declared" such that the application will be deemed a "residence case" and sent to the Citizenship Judge as such.

Some of OB 407 appears to have been redacted. No surprise.

-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: akella
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 6:26am
Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:

Some of OB 407 appears to have been redacted. No surprise.

I'd say - some redactions are, indeed, strange. For example, "The new File Analysis Template has been prepared in consultation with citizenship judges and..." Why in the world would anyone black out the list of parties consulted? I thought - may be they are blacking out names by default (i.e. J.K.), but the blacked out paragraph is quite long. Very fishy stuff.


Posted By: timbit_TO
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 8:02am
Originally posted by akella akella wrote:

Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:

Some of OB 407 appears to have been redacted. No surprise.

I'd say - some redactions are, indeed, strange. For example, "The new File Analysis Template has been prepared in consultation with citizenship judges and..." Why in the world would anyone black out the list of parties consulted? I thought - may be they are blacking out names by default (i.e. J.K.), but the blacked out paragraph is quite long. Very fishy stuff.

In theory these redactions can be contested with the Information and Privacy Commissioner;  how one would do that not knowing the content of what was redacted has always boggled my mind.


-------------
Law (the). Nobody knows what it is.
Gustave Flaubert, Le Dictionnaire des idées reçues


Posted By: Glimmer
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 10:40am
Thanks so much for posting the link for this info.  It sounds like the RQ isn't looked at until just before you are scheduled for the test and the hold is lifted at that time.  As dpenabill suggests, I suppose the purpose of the "BF" function is to put your file in the queue for analysis by an officer, and this could mean RQ files enter the "queue" to be reviewed by an officer later than other files.


Posted By: akella
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Glimmer Glimmer wrote:

Thanks so much for posting the link for this info.  It sounds like the RQ isn't looked at until just before you are scheduled for the test and the hold is lifted at that time.  As dpenabill suggests, I suppose the purpose of the "BF" function is to put your file in the queue for analysis by an officer, and this could mean RQ files enter the "queue" to be reviewed by an officer later than other files.

BF is their lingo for "Bring Forward". In CAIPS notes for immigration cases this was the date the file was actually supposed to be touched again by a human being. In GCMS apparently this function is implemented via Due Dates.

Now, I am not sure about this part "RQ isn't looked at until just before you are scheduled for the test". In my case, a GCMS note "RQ response received" was posted in GCMS approximately 2 weeks after mail receipt (and at that time it was approx. 55 days from the RQ issuance date). This may mean either of two things:
  • CO looked at the response, posted the note and lifted the hold (which would mean that I am now in the queue for test scheduling);
  • CO just acknowledged the receipt, posted the note and will look at it later  (my hope is that this is a less likely scenario - as mailroom could do this instead then /acknowledge receipt/). And even in this case I am still hoping the hold is lifted, it is just that CO would complete his/her new pre-interview checklist later.

May be you could try contacting the call center and ask them to see what recent events/notes are on your file? When you phrase it like that, they usually don't ask any additional questions (other than - "what type of application is that?") and just go into the system to have a look.




Posted By: T800
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 11:06am
"On Hold" flag is scary especially given the fact it has to be taken off manually and is therefore prone to human error or oversight!


Posted By: Glimmer
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 11:08am
Originally posted by T800 T800 wrote:

"On Hold" flag is scary especially given the fact it has to be taken off manually and is therefore prone to human error or oversight!


I agree Confused


Posted By: crisp
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 11:20am
Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:



What we do not learn:

No hint what criteria is employed in deciding who is given RQ. Reference to the appendix in CP 5 suggests that the criteria there is still relevant, but of course reports in immigration forums have strongly indicated that some of this criteria has had far more impact than some other factors. There is nothing to explain why the scope of RQ has been expanded, that is, that a higher percentage of applicants have been getting RQ, which at least appears to have happened.

No hint of what the tipping point might be regarding what are sufficient "indications that not all absences have been declared" such that the application will be deemed a "residence case" and sent to the Citizenship Judge as such.

Some of OB 407 appears to have been redacted. No surprise.

I think there's plenty of hint what the most important criteria is. It hasn't changed at all. It IS: 1095 days of physical residence in Canada

I don't think the scope of RQ has been expanded, but the more strict requirement for proof of the 1095 physical residence in Canada has been applied. The recent surge in RQ doesn't mean the scope of RQ has been expanded but that this new policy has been applied regressively to CIT apps submitted before the change. Hence the recent surge in RQ at CIT test or afterwards.

You say there's "no hint of what the tipping point might be  regarding what are sufficient "indications that not all absences have been declared."" No, there's plenty of HINT. It's whether or not CIT applicants have a clean record of their 1095 physical residence (along with strong ties in Canada): no travels abroad & address changes for the entire period of 4 yrs, no Middle Eastern or South Asian background, no immigration agents involved for their CIT apps, no US CITs or PRs with a shady employment history in Canada, no US or other foreign visas on passports, etc. 

There's plenty of HINT, and your RANDOM THEORY OF RQ goes out the window.



Posted By: Forestmember
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by nwtspam nwtspam wrote:

Google Doc link is added to the 1st post.

Thank you Edmonton2011 for the upload. 

Thank you Nwtspam for the posting


Posted By: Vancan2012
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 2:12pm
I wonder if CIC has a plan to revert the BS (no typo) function that they have implemented since this process has started to take close to the physical presence requirement in terms of duration.


Posted By: Vancan2012
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 2:13pm
And of course, thanks to the OP for posting this valuable information that will at least keep us informed on what to expect from this *beautiful* process.


Posted By: crisp
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by Vancan2012 Vancan2012 wrote:

I wonder if CIC has a plan to revert the BS (no typo) function that they have implemented since this process has started to take close to the physical presence requirement in terms of duration.

My understanding is CIC uses this RQ procedure to deny some applicants' CIT apps and even jeopardize their PR status (if they've left Canada after submitting their CIT apps) by dragging this for as long as possible, for yrs. And also it uses this opportunity to probe into your financial situation. They are especially interested in your real estate properties and other financial assets abroad. This whole Canadian immigration industry is all about the flow of money from abroad to Canada. Canada has no major industry other than the dirty-oil industry in Alberta and the dishonest immigration industry to make its economy float. 


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 3:15pm

There is nothing in OB 407 that comments, one way or the other, on the criteria for imposing RQ. The only hint comes from continued references to the appendix to CP 5, from which a reasonable person may infer that the appendix is still valid/applicable except for the changes referenced (such as the Memo template), and thus that the criteria set out there is still applied.

However the appendix is explicitly addressed to citizenship officers whose role is to gather, compile, assess, and deliver the file with their "briefing memo" to the Citizenship Judge. This is a reference to CIC officers processing the application in local offices, not to CIC personnel conducting screening in CPC-Sydney. Since the new procedure entails screening at Sydney to identify applicants for whom RQ will be sent, there must be some guidelines, some specified criteria somewhere, for them to follow in making this determination. It appears to me that there probably is some instruction in this regard in OB 407 but that is redacted.

While it is difficult to even identify where much as been redacted from OB 407, to my eye it appears that an important paragraph (or more) has been redacted immediately below the heading "New procedure" on page 4, which is then followed by the paragraph stating that the applicant will be required to submit, within 45 days, the completed RQ.

Obviously I have no crystal ball and cannot know what is in the redacted portion there, but I think we can reasonably infer that it has to do with what is involved in the Sydney screening for applicants to be given RQ.

One question I have in this regard is whether or not the applicant is simply selected for RQ (based on whatever criteria) or is at that point "identified as being a residence case," and as such is given RQ. It appears, based on the procedure for "new residence . . . cases . . . " (see page 5 of OB 407), that applicants are given RQ because they are identified as "residence cases."

This, I suspect is not good news, and is one aspect of my speculations about which it appears I might have been off the mark.

Residence cases clearly go to the Citizenship Judge via a different queue than the "regular processing track."

The question is whether or not the case of an applicant "identified as being a residence case" will sometimes be returned to the "regular processing track." That is, whether upon assessment of the file by the citizenship officer (local office) the RQ submission plus the rest of the file might satisfy the citizenship officer sufficiently to at least be processed more promptly than those requiring a thorough evaluation of residency by the Citizenship Judge.

This is a huge question, of course, of much import to all those who have received early RQ and who will be receiving RQ in the future. The question being how long, or rather how much longer, it will take to process their application given that they have been, at least initially identified as a "residence case" and given RQ.

I had speculated that the new procedure might be good news for those applicants accurately declaring 1095+ days of presence but nonetheless given RQ, that the new, early RQ, would facilitate resolving issues or questions for many such applicants. I still think that is likely to be the case, but the timeline for this is still likely to be significantly longer than for those who are not given RQ if, following all the processing by the local office citizenship officer, the case still goes to the Citizenship Judge in the queue for a "residence case" not in the "regular processing track."

I am, here, wrestling with the import of the following in OB 407:
Quote All applicants who are identified as being a residence case on and after May 7 must be given the new RQ. When the RQ and supporting documents are received, the citizenhship officer is to prepare their analysis for the judge using the new File Analysis Template.
It is clear that this file analysis template is not utilized for the "regular processing track" cases.

What would make sense. What I hope, and what all those given RQ despite accurately declaring 1095+ days of presence probably hope, is that there is something in the file analysis template that creates separate processing tracks. One track would be for cases which are indeed substantively a "residence case" (such as where the applicant declared or obviously was not present for at least 1095 days), and another track would be for those where the applicant declared 1095+ days presence and the response to RQ documents residence and presence sufficient to satisfy the citizenship officer that there are no indications of a failure to declare all absences.

For the legitimate, honest, well-qualified applicant who accurately declared 1095+ days of presence but who was nonetheless given RQ, and thus who submitted a well-done, well-documented response to the RQ, the last thing they would want, at that point, is have their cases put into a general queue of residence cases, which, obviously, would mean a significant delay before a final determination by the CJ.


Criteria underlying selection of applicants to be identified as residence cases.


This leads back to what is redacted immediately below the heading "New procedure" on page 4, which is then followed by the paragraph stating that the applicant will be required to submit, within 45 days, the completed RQ. As I acknowledged, I have no crystal ball and cannot know what is in the redacted portion there, but I think we can reasonably infer that it has to do with what is involved in the Sydney screening for applicants to be given RQ.

The portion redacted is too short to be a full outline of criteria. Does it refer to the criteria outlined in Appendix A of CP 5? Does it refer to a new formulation of criteria for selecting applicants to be identified as a "residence case?" Does it refer to the criteria (or a similar outline of criteria) indicated in the checklist for "counter referrals" for some PR card renewal applicants as stated in OB 424, but also including some additionally selected randomly?

There are clear indications that the scope of applicants given RQ has expanded. Those of us who are genuinely interested in learning what we can and sharing information regarding the process, to help one another better understand the process and thus to be prepared for various aspects of the process (ranging from deciding when to apply to preparing for a hearing with the CJ if it comes to that, which it has for more than a few who have been reporting in this forum over the course of the last several years), have observed a significant expansion in the scope of RQ. Some of this, of course, dates back to 2006 and the initial issuance of OB 22, now expired but still applicable as set out as an appendix to CP 5, but as I noted before, the reports very much suggest that some criteria looms more significantly, some factors creating a much higher risk of RQ than others, some appearing to always or almost always result in the imposition of RQ, so that the appendix obviously does NOT tell the whole story of what criteria is applied in determining who gets RQ.

Moreover, there is a clear concurrence, timewise, between the new procedure and a dramatic increase in reports of RQ. In particular, if one compares the reports of RQ going back to the previous rendition of this forum (prior to Nov 2009) into 2010, with the reports from late 2010 and through to earlier this year, there was, first, an apparent increase in RQ given applicants declaring 1095+ days presence, and then there is (it appears) another dramatic increase in RQ in the last while since OB 407 was issued, suggesting that there has been, indeed, attendant that, some significant changes to what triggers the imposition of RQ. Indeed, by mid-June we saw a virtual explosion of new reports of RQ here alone; it would be a very unusual coincidence if this was not related to the issuance of OB 407 and the procedure to screen applicants to be given RQ in Sydney.

As I said, OB 407 (as redacted) does not illuminate much about the criteria employed. Under the criteria set out in the CP 5 appendix, the range and variability of factors is too expansive to offer us a lot of guidance given the obvious variability in how those criteria are applied, but additionally there are, clearly, more criteria or guidelines being employed.

If this new procedure will be resulting in all RQ'd cases being significantly delayed, this is critical information. Even if the response to RQ, for applicants who accurately and completely declared all absences and were actually present 1095+, will facilitate a separate residence case track for instances in which the response satisfies the citizenship officer, it is important information in the sense that knowing what factors are making a difference would help in digging up and including information and documentation that will resolve the issue.

This leads back to the important issue highlighted by timbit_TO in the topic "Residency: tests, proof, practice, policy" regarding to what extent should applicants be given notice of what concerns there are in their case. I have read a lot of law in the last three plus decades of being a jurist, reviewed a wide, wide range of adjudicatory and quasi-adjudicatory processes, and administrative procedures, and it is utterly mind-boggling that an advanced nation governing based on the rule of law and principles of fair procedure, can require parties to submit proof on an issue without being given notice of what the issue is.


-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: Glimmer
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 4:02pm
So I guess for a lot of applicants getting the new early RQ, at some undetermined point in the future, a CJ will receive a 3-inch stack of documents with a memo on top saying "I have no particular concerns".  What a waste of time and energy!


Posted By: akella
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 4:05pm
My (simplistic) vision of the current process:

1. CPC-S mailroom receives the application, checks for completeness, fills completeness checklist (or returns back if incomplete).
2. Level 1 decision maker in CPC-S reviews the app and issues RQ where required (criteria for RQ are likely check-listed in the similar manner as described here - http://immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10265&PID=177772&title=pretest-rq-issuance-criteria#177772 - http://immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10265&PID=177772&title=pretest-rq-issuance-criteria#177772 ). As this is a recent checklist, they are likely using something very similar. An app may be identified as a residence case at this point, but not necessarily, there are other items on the checklist that trigger the requirement to send an RQ.
3. Local office CO officer does pre-test/pre-interview review of the file (with RQ response if RQ was requested by CPC-S level 1 decision maker). The file may be identified as a residence case at this point.
4. Local office CO interviews the applicant prior to the test. The file may be identified as a residence case at this point.
5. Test. (and no test until RQ response has been received)
6. Local office CO conducts post-test review of the file. If this is a residence case, hearing with a CJ is scheduled - long story. If not a residence case (i.e. RQ issued based on suspicious address or other criteria from the checklist) - CO competes the memo (File Analysis Template) and ships the file to CJ (no hearing).
7. CJ does his/her stuff and sends the file back to CO with the decision note and argumentation.
8. CO reviews the note, if CO agrees - everybody start dancing, if not - see www.fct-cf.gc.ca .


Posted By: akella
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:


I am, here, wrestling with the import of the following in OB 407:
Quote All applicants who are identified as being a residence case on and after May 7 must be given the new RQ. When the RQ and supporting documents are received, the citizenhship officer is to prepare their analysis for the judge using the new File Analysis Template.
It is clear that this file analysis template is not utilized for the "regular processing track" cases.


I am making a different inference from this. Page 4 says "In all instances where an RQ is on file, citizenship officers are required to analyse all of the information submitted by the applicant and prepare a briefing memo for the CJ using the new File Analysis Template." The sections you are referring to (pre&post May 7 residence cases), merely ensure that all cases that are a) residence cases and b) are referred for hearing have a standardized briefing memo completed on the new File Analysis Template. (and for those unfortunate ones - who were issued an RQ pre-May 7 and identified as a residence case by CO post May 7 - a new RQ will be in order). It is possible to have an RQ issued by CPC-S based on their checklist criteria and not be a residence case requiring CJ hearing (until a determination is made by local CO).



Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 7:24pm
A good outline of the probable process (leaving out collateral steps such as for obtaining clearances), akella, with which I largely concur except:

Step 2. Level 1 . . .
My impression (now, further explained below) is that this is where they "identify" a residence case and if a residence case they send RQ. Agree with observation regarding criteria. I think an applicant can still be identified as a residence case later in the process (as you suggest, akella, including at the time of initial review of the file, at the test) . . . right up to the moment of taking the oath actually (see reports by some who have gotten all the way to the oath and not been allowed to take it, and a process similar to RQ followed), but usually, almost always, the later instances of identifying a residence case probably occur associated with the test-interview (presentation of travel documents). There are some instances, too, of CJs initiating requests for additional information and documentation, and as I recall OB 407 allows for this still.

Step 6. Local office . . .
In particular
Quote If this is a residence case, hearing with a CJ is scheduled - long story. If not a residence case (i.e. RQ issued based on suspicious address or other criteria from the checklist) - CO competes the memo (File Analysis Template) and ships the file to CJ (no hearing).


First, it is clear that the File Analysis Template is for RQ'd cases, not for the majority of applications to be handled in the "regular processing track." See page 5 of OB 407
Quote . . . the file analysis template is a tool for citizenship officers to use when preparing files for the judge whenever an RQ has been requested.
The memo is separate. This is significant because it separates all RQ'd applicants from the rest, from those not given RQ. Big clue this means a separate track with a separate timeline.

Secondly, the scheduling of a hearing with a CJ is not done at that point in time or by the CIC officer. Rather, the case is referred to the CJ.

Cases not RQ'd are referred for what I have usually called the routine file review process but is referred to in operational manuals as the "regular processing track, but whatever it is called, this is the processing track resulting, ordinarily, in being scheduled for the oath in the ordinary course of the local office procedure (some seem to have a longer delay in scheduling the oath; last year Calgary was doing oaths for some the same day they appeared for and took the test).

Residence cases are referred for a separate process, and the previous rendition of the referral may indeed have designated it as a referral for a hearing with the CJ even though, again, many such cases never went to a hearing, but all were, yeah, the long story version, or as I have called it, the long-haul RQ process. It could be months, and in many instances years, before a hearing was scheduled. It could be that long even for those who were not going to go to a hearing (and no hearing was ever scheduled). CIC often told such applicants they were waiting for a hearing to be scheduled, or simply "waiting for the Citizenship Judge." And wait they did.

What about, as you suggest akella, the applicant who was given RQ and responded appropriately, sufficiently for the citizenship officer to be satisfied that both the applicant declared 1095 days of presence, and there are not indications of undeclared absences?

This goes back to the File Analysis Template. All RQ'd applicants will have this template used in completing the file that eventually goes to the CJ. This will distinguish them from applicants who did not get RQ. How will that affect the way, and importantly the time, the CJ reviews their case?

Sorry, but unfortunately, as I previously posted, I think my prior speculations about this were overly optimistic. (I anticipate falling into this category when the time comes, by the way, about which I really am sorry, sorry for myself of course.)

It is hard to imagine that the part of the process CIC is not sharing with us does not provide for different processing tracks depending on the local office officer's total assessment; that is, I believe that the process will undoubtedly have a faster processing track for RQ'd applicants whose response satisfies the residency concerns versus those whose response leaves concerns to be evaluated and determined by the CJ. Even this, though, looks likely to mean that the RQ'd applicant, the one whose file is sent to the CJ with the File Analysis Template done (a residency assessment template most likely), will face a longer processing timeline no matter how convincing their response to the RQ is. If there is no separate queue for RQ'd applicants in referrals to the CJ, ouch, big ouch, for that will almost certainly mean a much longer timeline.

Designation as "residence case."


Note: my suspicion is that at this stage, for CIC "residence case" and "RQ'd" are synonomous.
Quote It is possible to have an RQ issued by CPC-S based on their checklist criteria and not be a residence case requiring CJ hearing (until a determination is made by local CO).

I think this is a question, the question being: "Is it possible to have an RQ issued by CPC-S based on their checklist criteria and not be a residence case . . .?"

Not all residence cases have gone to a hearing. They have, though, gone into a long queue.

So whether or not a case will go to a hearing is not part of the question that matters so much, not for legitimate applicants nonetheless given RQ.

The question is whether the selection process in Sydney (done by the "level 1 decision maker" after the mailroom steps, checking the application for completeness) is to impose RQ based on the applicable criteria or it is to identify whether it is a residence case . . . and if a residence case, then RQ is sent to the client/applicant.

My impression is the latter: that the redacted paragraph on page 4 following the heading "New procedure" refers to applicants being identified as a residence case in the level 1 decision-making step at Sydney, resulting in RQ being sent to the applicant.

My previous speculation was based on my previous impression that identification of an application as a residence case was part of the referral process by the local office citizenship officer . . . most applications going in the "regular processing track," but where the officer is not satisfied that, both, the applicant was present at least 1095 days and that all absences have been declared, the application being referred to the CJ . . . perhaps labelled as "for hearing" but, again, not all those cases went to a hearing, though it appeared that all (or at least the vast majority) went into a queue involving a long wait for the next step.

These issues merge.

Actually, who cares how the case is labelled? What matters is how the case is handled when it is sent to the CJ. We know the two extremes:
-- regular processing track (time to oath as been as short as in the P.M. after an A.M. test; usually within two to four months)
-- long-haul RQ process, potentially a long wait for a hearing, but a long wait nonetheless

It would be very disconcerting if all RQ'd cases were destined for the second of these. And that does not seem likely either.

And we know that prior to these changes the operational manual allowed for cases in which the local office imposed RQ, got the response, assessed it, and then essentially returned the application to the regular processing track (the good side of processing). We saw several reports here in the forum, over time, of applicants who had, indeed, received RQ, responded, and next thing that happened was the oath, some in just three (some even less) to six months, a few longer than that, some significantly longer but not nearly the year plus wait that those in for the long-haul RQ have had to endure.

There must be some accomodation for this in the new process. That said, OB makes it clear, I think, that the File Analysis Template is to be used in all RQ'd cases going forward, so how it will go when it leaves the CIC local officer's hands we cannot be sure. I am glad we have some serious participants here to give reports on how their case goes.

In this regard, I want to say that I really appreciate all those who are indeed contributing to this, here and in RQ discussions, and other topics. I think we are developing a robust source of information regarding the RQ process here, perhaps as probing and informative as any source of such information. There is no need for perfect consensus regarding every issue. Sure, some of the reports are probably off a bit, some in error, some rooted in a misunderstanding of this or that (I have contributed my share of errors here), but there is enough here to give those faced with this process a lot of insight and ammunition for dealing with it. I'd start naming names, like those in this topic such as nwtspam, akella, Vancan2012, as well as timbit_TO and Glimmer and others, such as jogruni in other topics, but this of course leaves some out who should be mentioned. But over the course of the last year and a half, or so, the RQ related discussions here have grown well beyond the venting that dominated before . . . venting is OK. This is a place to share frustrations as well. But there is a lot of stuff here now that should help many navigate their way through the quagmire of RQ. And they certainly should see, here, they are not alone.



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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: akella
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 8:15pm

I’ll play the devil’s advocate and take the optimistic guy role vacated by dpenabill in the post above. What if we are overthinking this quite a bit? What if the root causes are only the ones stated in OB 407 & in Citizenship Program Audit report discussed in a different topic?

It appears that CIC had just a few problems:

·         --  Insufficient residency evidence included into the file  (audit finding)

o   Very little documentation was requested upfront, even for cases known to trigger additional scrutiny at local office level

o   Varying review/documentation practices between local offices were creating a lot of breathing space for COs

§  Where additional documentation was requested (via RQ process), COs had an easy way out of actually reviewing the response – by submitting the whole pack to CJ. As their briefing memo was not standardized, their referral (speculation) could theoretically be a one liner: “Residency issues”

§  Anecdotally, one forum member reported being RQd by a CO at test-interview when CO ran out of time prior to scheduled test start and mumbled: “I will let CJ look at this”

§  As per OB 407, some applicants were referred to CJ hearings without actually being interviewed by CO

o   With a very limited number of CJs (who have to review all files and – in their turn – put down some meaningful arguments in their decision), this CO tactic (all of the above) could have been creating serious bottle-necks at CJ level (at least in some offices) and increasing CJs stress and cholesterol levels.

§  With lenient COs, CJs could sometimes choose to play the same game (just check all checkmarks on their checklist to render a decision) and return the file back to CO -> and this goes back to the whole insufficient residency evidence issue.


New process:

  • Requests evidence upfront for cases that may have problems based on whatever metrics/flags they use and ensures the evidence is on file prior to CO review and test-interview
  • Forces the CO to actually review the evidence and summarize in a standardized short File Review Template and provide a recommendation to CJ

o   I would assume this includes CO assurances (checkmarks) that he/she reviewed all evidence, counted days, matched stamps, asked questions, etc. – something they could previously easily skip doing. And COs can eventually be held accountable for this.

  •  Even if there is 4kg of paper on file, CJs now get a nice 1-page summary of RQ response review and won’t need to dive into the details (unless unanswered questions remain / concerns are flagged).
  • I can’t imagine them having a separate track for this – this still should fall under a general review of the case by CJ. Which effectively means returning the case to regular processing track (but there is likely a separate queue for cases where unanswered questions remain and hearing is required).


Two other “Rays of Hope”:

  • OB 407 states that “all assessment of these forms and tools, including usage, will take place by November 2012” – to make a meaningful assessment, CIC needs to move a considerable number of cases through all phases and get feedback from all parties, so this may actually mean expediting early RQ recipients through all stages
  • OB 407 states that “the use of “On-Hold” in GCMS does not necessarily mean the processing of the file has stopped” – which may mean they are still committed to process pre-test RQs in a reasonable time fashion.


Posted By: RQvictim
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by nwtspam nwtspam wrote:


Internal CIC Operational Bulletin 407 - May 3, 2012 

Obtained under Access to Information Act by nwtspam

Standardizing the preparation of citizenship grant applications

Background
An Internal Audit of the citizenship program conducted from December 2010 to April 2011 identified a lack of evidence on file to support declared absences and demonstrate the basis for grant decisions. The audit also identified inconsistencies on the type of documentation that is retained on file to demonstrate compliance to legislative and policy requirements.

File preparation is one of the key Read where the implementation of consistent procedures is beneficial and helps ensure the integrity of the citizenship program. Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) officials and citizenship judges both..................................................................................................................................................................

You may view the document at this Google Docs link:
http://docs.google.com/open?id=0By9o70015IRPVXgwRnAyNU9jMjg - http://docs.google.com/open?id=0By9o70015IRPVXgwRnAyNU9jMjg

Read the document at your own risk. Contact CIC call centre for any further information. Thank you Edmonton2011 for uploading the file(s). 

You're fantastic nwtspam !!! It does light up a lot of questions I had


Posted By: timbit_TO
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 9:25pm
I think that this File Analysis Template should form a critical part of disclosure requested by the applicants in advance of the hearing with a CJ.

I also looked a bit further into the ATIP appeal process. I think it may be worth to pursue one with the Commissioner if it's still within the timeframe just to be certain that the redactions are justified. It costs $20.

Also I think it's worth noting that the language of the OB emphasizes "getting" the information from the applicants, not allowing them to "make their case". I think it's probably a reflection that litigation at CIC is handled by a different department than regular processing. Nevertheless I think it's somewhat disconcerting, albeit not surprising, that this disparity in approaches can be misleading for some applicants.

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Law (the). Nobody knows what it is.
Gustave Flaubert, Le Dictionnaire des idées reçues


Posted By: RQvictim
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2012 at 9:28pm
Originally posted by akella akella wrote:

I’ll play the devil’s advocate and take the optimistic guy role vacated by dpenabill in the post above. What if we are overthinking this quite a bit? What if the root causes are only the ones stated in OB 407 & in Citizenship Program Audit report discussed in a different topic?

It appears that CIC had just a few problems:

·         --  Insufficient residency evidence included into the file  (audit finding)

o   Very little documentation was requested upfront, even for cases known to trigger additional scrutiny at local office level

o   Varying review/documentation practices between local offices were creating a lot of breathing space for COs

§  Where additional documentation was requested (via RQ process), COs had an easy way out of actually reviewing the response – by submitting the whole pack to CJ. As their briefing memo was not standardized, their referral (speculation) could theoretically be a one liner: “Residency issues”

§  Anecdotally, one forum member reported being RQd by a CO at test-interview when CO ran out of time prior to scheduled test start and mumbled: “I will let CJ look at this”

§  As per OB 407, some applicants were referred to CJ hearings without actually being interviewed by CO

o   With a very limited number of CJs (who have to review all files and – in their turn – put down some meaningful arguments in their decision), this CO tactic (all of the above) could have been creating serious bottle-necks at CJ level (at least in some offices) and increasing CJs stress and cholesterol levels.

§  With lenient COs, CJs could sometimes choose to play the same game (just check all checkmarks on their checklist to render a decision) and return the file back to CO -> and this goes back to the whole insufficient residency evidence issue.


New process:

  • Requests evidence upfront for cases that may have problems based on whatever metrics/flags they use and ensures the evidence is on file prior to CO review and test-interview
  • Forces the CO to actually review the evidence and summarize in a standardized short File Review Template and provide a recommendation to CJ

o   I would assume this includes CO assurances (checkmarks) that he/she reviewed all evidence, counted days, matched stamps, asked questions, etc. – something they could previously easily skip doing. And COs can eventually be held accountable for this.

  •  Even if there is 4kg of paper on file, CJs now get a nice 1-page summary of RQ response review and won’t need to dive into the details (unless unanswered questions remain / concerns are flagged).
  • I can’t imagine them having a separate track for this – this still should fall under a general review of the case by CJ. Which effectively means returning the case to regular processing track (but there is likely a separate queue for cases where unanswered questions remain and hearing is required).


Two other “Rays of Hope”:

  • OB 407 states that “all assessment of these forms and tools, including usage, will take place by November 2012” – to make a meaningful assessment, CIC needs to move a considerable number of cases through all phases and get feedback from all parties, so this may actually mean expediting early RQ recipients through all stages
  • OB 407 states that “the use of “On-Hold” in GCMS does not necessarily mean the processing of the file has stopped” – which may mean they are still committed to process pre-test RQs in a reasonable time fashion.

I concur 99% for the new process!


Posted By: freedom10
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 7:40pm
Thanks


Posted By: timbit_TO
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2012 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by freedom10 freedom10 wrote:

[...] the new immigration minister [...]

Minister Kenney's tenure began in October 2008.


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Law (the). Nobody knows what it is.
Gustave Flaubert, Le Dictionnaire des idées reçues


Posted By: nwtspam
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2012 at 4:15am
I am willing to appeal if you pay that $20. I don't mind helping you guys out. I have paid $5 for this OB407. My application does not require RQ. I just wanna prove that ATIP request is EXTREMELY easy. I request a free one every 30 days under Privacy Act to get my latest citizenship grant status. 

CIC call centre is next to useless and the local office is no longer available. EVERYONE should file ATIP to get their latest update, for free under Private Act. YOU have the rights to know what is YOUR government doing before closed doors.

nwtspam


Originally posted by timbit_TO timbit_TO wrote:

I think that this File Analysis Template should form a critical part of disclosure requested by the applicants in advance of the hearing with a CJ.

I also looked a bit further into the ATIP appeal process. I think it may be worth to pursue one with the Commissioner if it's still within the timeframe just to be certain that the redactions are justified. It costs $20.

Also I think it's worth noting that the language of the OB emphasizes "getting" the information from the applicants, not allowing them to "make their case". I think it's probably a reflection that litigation at CIC is handled by a different department than regular processing. Nevertheless I think it's somewhat disconcerting, albeit not surprising, that this disparity in approaches can be misleading for some applicants.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2012 at 4:36pm

Your assistance is indeed appreciated nwtspam.

I have been watching the published list of completed information requests since you first indicated you were going to do this. I was doing this for a few reasons, key among them, though, is that as soon as the completed request is listed it is very easy indeed to obtain a copy of that (which can be done informally by email, quick and easy).

There is, so far, no listing of a completed request that would fit yours. Some completed requests are not published in the list. So my first question is when did yours get completed? If not until July, then I'll wait to see if it gets listed. If it was June (or sooner but obviously it was not before June), please let us know -- that will mean CIC is not going to list it and any one of us who want a formal copy from CIC will have to submit our own ATI request.

Secondly, the http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/kits/forms/IMM5563E.pdf - form I am familiar with is indeed easy, but this form is for the ATIP request, which is a request for information regarding one's own case. I absolutely agree with you, for anyone given RQ it is very good idea to make this request.

Sidenote: In particular, for anyone for whom more than three months have passed since the test or since submission of response to RQ if submitted after test, they should absolutely make this request. And, in particular, one way or the other, make a specific request for a copy of the CIC Memo submitted in the referral to the Citizenship Judge. I do not know to what extent this memo will be shared with the client/applicant, but I think it is important (as timbit_TO has indicated) to make a record of requesting the information that is set out, per the File Analysis Template, in that Memo. (Without going back to OB 407, my rough recall is that the File Analysis Template is a template used to complete the "Memo" that goes to the CJ whenever there has been RQ . . . the Memo being the document that goes to the CJ, the template being the outline of items to be answered and included in that memo; that is, the template is essentially a blank form which, when completed, constitutes the "memo" which goes to the CJ, and this "memo" is what the applicant wants to request a copy of). I have the sense that CIC will not disclose the Memo to the client (don't know -- hopefully someone will be in a position to make such a request and let us know what response they get). If there is a formal request, though, for this information, I think that will make it far easier, if necessary (this is talking about less than one in a thousand cases probably), to make a violation of fair process argument to the Federal Court about being ambushed (unfairly surprised) at the hearing with the CJ or otherwise unfairly denied information as to what the client needs to present to the CJ.

Because the standard CIC access to personal information form does not allow one to clarify the request, or elaborate on the request, and in particular does not allow the inclusion of a cover letter, for those who want to request a copy of the Memo sent to the CJ, I suggest making a separate request specifically for the Memo plus any other information regarding concerns, issues, or [composing such requests is well outside my area, so how one words this needs to be refined] using the generic http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/tbsf-fsct/350-58-eng.pdf - Personal Information Request Form (which allows for making a request for particular types of information in detail, versus the CIC form which will only provide the immigration file and the "Citizenship file").      


Back to the ATIA request nwtspam did.

(I am assuming, nwtspam, your request must have been an ATIA request, not the ATIP, since the latter is relative to an individual's case not to public information generally.)

In any event: did you use a form or just make the request by letter? If you used a form, which form did you use? Please let us know which of the various forms you used to make this particular request.

The form I'd be inclined to us, other than the one CIC provides, is--
-- the generic "Access to Information Request Form" found http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/tbsf-fsct/350-57-eng.pdf - at this link .

In particular, as I have noted, since composing the "request," as in describing the details of the request, is something I'm not so familiar with or comfortable with, I am hoping you will share here just what you specified in your request.


-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: akella
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 10:06am
I think that nwtspam's original request is up in the list of completed ATIP requests on the CIC website:

A-2012-05827 Copies of all briefing notes, memoranda, reports, research and other communications material prepared for the Minister and ministerial staff, as well as all CIC Departmental documentation, including briefing notes, memoranda, question period notes, policy documents with keyword "Residence Questionnaire" from January 1, 2012 to June 19, 2012. Disclosed in part 14



Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 1:36pm
My informal request for a copy has been sent.

Thank you for spotting and posting this akella.

(I was wondering if CIC was going to list this one; relieved some to see that they have. Perhaps I have been a little overly paranoid about Minister Kenney's inclination toward keeping things behind closed doors. But, there is still the issue of what has been redacted . . . will deal with that in due course as I learn more about how to do this FOI stuff.)

-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: stofy
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 11:49pm
Hi , i sent back the RQ documents withthe questionary.
Any guess before i will receive some news back? What kein of delay can i expect?
Thanks


Posted By: akella
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 12:12am
I am sending a follow up request to them to request information that was conveniently omitted (annexes of OB407 and other stuff). Will see what it will get us.


Posted By: canuck25
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 8:14am
 


Posted By: stofy
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 10:30am
Thank you for this infos, and for the new migrants they should think twice before coming here Dead


Posted By: Northy
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 11:07am
There is no need for sarcasm. People coming here should be planning to stay here. In which case it doesn't really matter how long it takes... This shouldn't be used as a mean to get a passport but an end for a new life and adoption of the new country.


Posted By: stofy
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 11:25am
You are right, it doesn't matter how long it takes and probably to much much people only need a passport.I don't specialy need for a Canadian passport, i don't come from a third wordl country.
I just would like to be able to plan for my holiday and be able to visit my parents in the country where i come from.Not knowing after already 20 months and how long its going to take is highly frustrating.
You need to book an airplaine ticket month an advance when you work, so you can not take off just like this.
Saying i don't blame the process CIC staff do what they can, and what they have been told to do.
Sorry if i offended again 


Posted By: EasyRider
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 11:47am
Originally posted by Northy Northy wrote:

There is no need for sarcasm. People coming here should be planning to stay here. In which case it doesn't really matter how long it takes... This shouldn't be used as a mean to get a passport but an end for a new life and adoption of the new country.
Yeah, why give passport to immigrants at all. You can get by in Canada, live your life and finally die here just being a PR, right?


Posted By: hekmeh30
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 12:10pm
Hi all, 
any idea whether the pre-test RQ is given to everybody and if so why they don't include it from the beginning when you apply?


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 1:12pm

Quote akella:
Quote I am sending a follow up request to them to request information that was conveniently omitted (annexes of OB407 and other stuff). Will see what it will get us


Good. Am looking forward to seeing what you dig up.

My request for a copy of the response was answered, with a pdf attachment, in less than 24 hours. Of course this is the exact same document that nwtspam already made available to us, but it is good to have my own pdf containing this information and, indeed, a blank pdf for the Residence Questionnaire form as well. (I recall someone here had mangled their RQ form in a copier or scanner and was searching for ways to get another pdf copy of the form, and CIC would not, apparently, provide another copy . . . well now all they have to do is request a copy of the ATI request for A-2012-05827, by email, and they will get a copy forthwith . . . mine looks like it was scanned slightly askew so when printed it probably is obviously an unofficial copy but content wise the RQ form looks to be entirely entact . . . not sure about first and last pages, but the others look entact.)

I am inferring, akella, that what you mean is that you are making a new, separate (your own) request for this information, but in language that specifically requests the additional information. Please do keep us informed of how this goes. I might be making a similar request myself.


-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: tamarnouche
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by nwtspam nwtspam wrote:


Internal CIC Operational Bulletin 407 - May 3, 2012 

Obtained under Access to Information Act by nwtspam

Standardizing the preparation of citizenship grant applications

Background
An Internal Audit of the citizenship program conducted from December 2010 to April 2011 identified a lack of evidence on file to support declared absences and demonstrate the basis for grant decisions. The audit also identified inconsistencies on the type of documentation that is retained on file to demonstrate compliance to legislative and policy requirements.

File preparation is one of the key Read where the implementation of consistent procedures is beneficial and helps ensure the integrity of the citizenship program. Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) officials and citizenship judges both..................................................................................................................................................................

You may view the document at this Google Docs link:
http://docs.google.com/open?id=0By9o70015IRPVXgwRnAyNU9jMjg - http://docs.google.com/open?id=0By9o70015IRPVXgwRnAyNU9jMjg

Read the document at your own risk. Contact CIC call centre for any further information. Thank you Edmonton2011 for uploading the file(s). 
 
You actually did it!  I'm proud of you!
 
And thanks so much!
 
Tamarnouche.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 1:28pm


Quote hekmeh30:
Quote any idea whether the pre-test RQ is given to everybody and if so why they don't include it from the beginning when you apply?


Probably not. I would bet a lot, actually, that not everyone is given the pre-test RQ.

OB 407 specifically refers to (though important details about the "new procedure" are obviously redacted from the one shared publicly, thanks to nwtspam) the selection of applications to be given RQ in the level 1 screening at Sydney . . . obviously, this means some are selected, not all. We have not been given much information at all that reveals the selection criteria. We can extrapolate from OB 407 that the criteria in the appendix to CP 5 is still considered, but I think we can also anticipate that the criteria is similar to the checklist of criteria for conducting further scrutiny (including counter referral) in PR card renewal applications, which is set out in another operational bulletin discussed in a separate topic here.

Some people have recently reported seeing a large number of applicants given RQ at the time of the test-interview, including one who reported that everyone was given RQ (no way to verify this of course). But, I think it is fair to say that from what we can see in isolated, sporadic reporting, indicates that since May, yes, the number of applicants given RQ has gone up significantly, perhaps dramatically, but that most applicants are not getting RQ.

The biggest reason to not give RQ to everyone, or to require that extent of information to be included with the initial application for citizenship, is that the workload that would impose on CIC would be absolutely huge, well beyond their capacity to reasonably accomodate. Additionally, as has been seen already, more RQs also imposes increased burdens on other agencies like CBSA (from which RQ'd applicants are required to obtain their travel history).

Moreover, the burden that would impose on prospective citizens, across the board, would undoubtedly result in a huge backlash as well. It is possible that CIC has already seen a significant backlash from the changes they have implemented. We have seen, for example, that CBSA has been overwhelmed with travel history requests, and another participant here has reported that CBSA representative fully acknowledge there is a problem and that CIC is well aware of the problem. I anticipate this is resulting in more than a bit of tension behind closed doors. And I hope that those affected make appropriate complaints (not gratuitious complaints, but, for example, anyone who has made a request for their CBSA travel history and who does not get the information timely should make a complaint to the Information Commissioner, to at least make a record of the problem).



-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: akella
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Northy Northy wrote:

There is no need for sarcasm. People coming here should be planning to stay here. In which case it doesn't really matter how long it takes... This shouldn't be used as a mean to get a passport but an end for a new life and adoption of the new country.

There are many people for whom it does matter how long it takes. In my line of work (consulting), not having a Canadian passport & working for a Canadian office of a huge international company puts me at a major disadvantage, because the company is limited in how it can deploy me. There are many projects for Canadian clients that require visits to the U.S. - and there is only so much you can do on a B-1 visa (of course, there is also L-1, but ironically it will be a major red flag in a citizenship application). Many jobs like this in Canada come with the following requirement attached: "... must be able to enter the U.S. to work on client projects".

So it does matter a lot to me. It does trouble my employer. It does make me less marketable than my peers. It does affect my earning potential. I satisfied the requirements, I live in this country, I am not planning to leave, I pay taxes. Why anyone would think it is acceptable to have a process that is very slow to begin with, but then to slow it down even further by putting up all kinds of artificial hurdles?


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 2:24pm
Oddly enough I got a second email this afternoon from the same individual at CIC, again containing the attachment which includes OB 407 (with redactions) and the RQ form (alternating pages upside down in the pdf). The first email asked me to acknowledge receipt, which I did; maybe that triggered the second one, not sure. Second one did not request an acknowledgment of receipt.

I wonder how many of us have made this request now. More than a few I'm guessing. I wonder if that tickles any noses at CIC? This is, I think, part of what adds up to a backlash effect when CIC does this sort of thing: people respond, ask questions, seek information, or even complain, and it adds to the workload at CIC, perhaps getting some attention. I do not know, of course, and CIC is a huge bureaucracy, lots of little gears turning in a big machine with lots of big gears turning, lots of little clogs.

But those of us affected by these procedures deserve to be informed.

And, overall, the changes taking place clearly affect tens of thousands of people . . . if as has been reported in another topic, there are currently 3,500 requests for CBSA travel histories being processed by CBSA, that suggests a couple thousand, perhaps several thousand citizenship applicants are getting RQ every month. The impact of this is, of course, widespread, and is not the sort of thing that is likely to go without some significant backlash.

The underlying issue is whether or not the screening of applications to be given RQ is a fair process, and whether the subsequent processing is fair and timely for those given RQ despite being well-qualified, having 1095+ days presence and having submitted complete and accurate calculations of absence.




-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: EasyRider
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by akella akella wrote:

There are many people for whom it does matter how long it takes. In my line of work (consulting), not having a Canadian passport & working for a Canadian office of a huge international company puts me at a major disadvantage, because the company is limited in how it can deploy me. There are many projects for Canadian clients that require visits to the U.S. - and there is only so much you can do on a B-1 visa (of course, there is also L-1, but ironically it will be a major red flag in a citizenship application). Many jobs like this in Canada come with the following requirement attached: "... must be able to enter the U.S. to work on client projects".

So it does matter a lot to me. It does trouble my employer. It does make me less marketable than my peers. It does affect my earning potential. I satisfied the requirements, I live in this country, I am not planning to leave, I pay taxes. Why anyone would think it is acceptable to have a process that is very slow to begin with, but then to slow it down even further by putting up all kinds of artificial hurdles?
+1 I'm in the same position. Getting citizenship and passport will improve my employment and career prospects IN CANADA. Canadian passport is highly desirable if you hold more or less senior position in global company since you'll likely have to commute to the US or other countries for business purposes, probably a lot. And this is just one of many facets of citizenship.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 2:57pm

By the way, I agree with what akella just posted.

I do not have any of those concerns. And, thus, for example, I still have not even applied (I keep thinking, first Monday next month I will do it, then I don't). I am in no hurry (although I certainly want to be a citizen in time to participate in our next municipal election . . . also important for provincial and federal elections, but I really am anxious to participate in the local election because they directly affect my life here, now).

Not being in any rush, however, is not the same as being complacent about a process that has, indeed, grown to be far longer than is reasonable.

I want to live in a country where the government behaves reasonably, with fairness, with due process (which includes timely process), a just government.

It is clear, in contrast, that this year RQ has been expanded and is being imposed on a significant number of applicants who are well-qualified, who were resident in Canada for more than three years as specified by the Citizenship Act no matter what definition or standard is utilized, who completely and accurately disclosed all absences from Canada. These applicants are not asking the Canadian government for anything more than what the law explicitly entitles them to. Yes, that includes a Canadian passport. Yes, that includes the right to vote. Yes, that includes the right to obtain employment positions restricted to citizens. Yes, that includes the right to be acknowledged as a full Canadian with all the rights and privileges afforded Canadians. And yes, that includes a wide range of collateral consequences that go along with these.

OK, it may be acceptable, reasonable, for there to be a brief delay in giving individuals what they are entitled to, but how long is reasonable? An extra week or month? An extra month delay is pushing the envelope for what is reasonable when it comes to an administrative process that simply has to evaluate whether certain criteria have been met in granting something that an individual is entitled to be given. Adding months to the timeline just to get to the test (this seems quite likely) plus additional months to get the application referred to the Citizenship Judge for a decision (almost certain) plus probably an additional delay in the queue for the CJ to actually make the decision, is simply unreasonable.

It offends a reasonable person's expectations for what a fair and just government will do.

I look, in particular, at this situation with the CBSA travel history: this is simply outrageous that CIC makes a demand of applicants when the government itself is not prepared to do its part. Add to that the total surprise thrown upon applicants: informed from the beginning, for years, that day trips not only do not count as absences, they do not need to be reported. Now, suddenly, with no warning whatsoever, CIC is demanding applicants disclose all day trips as well . . . including those outside the relevant four year time frame, including those going back to the applicant's first arrival.

Add to that the draconian intrusiveness of the RQ requests, demanding information and documentation vastly in excess of what is required to meet a balance of probabilities standard. This is outrightly abusive for any applicant for whom there is not an overt, articulable reason to doubt the applicant's qualifications.

And again, this offends any reasonable person's expectations for what a fair and just government will do.

A long time ago, long before we were married, my wife gave me a tee-shirt with a quote from Camus on it.
Quote I should like to be able to love my country and still love justice.
She gave that to me because of my dissatisfaction with certain policies and behaviors in my home country. I very much want, and look forward to, Canada being my home country, the country I live in as a citizen. And I have this same sentiment, "I should like to be able to love my country and still love justice," regarding Canada now.

I acknowedge that there is, probably, a huge problem with fraud in the immigration and citizenship process, and that CIC really needs to implement policies and practices to address and diminish this problem. The measures they take, however, must absolutely be fair and just, and timely processing legitimate applications without imposing unreasonable demands of applicants is very much a part of what should be absolutely required, not just expected, but absolutely required.



-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: T800
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 3:26pm
So, instead of commenting on the recent RQ changes on this forum, what can each one of us effectively do to bring this to the attention of some decision makers who can actually get this issue of delayed citizenship applications addressed and help deserving immigrants the right to be called a citizen of Canada.


Posted By: RQvictim
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by T800 T800 wrote:

So, instead of commenting on the recent RQ changes on this forum, what can each one of us effectively do to bring this to the attention of some decision makers who can actually get this issue of delayed citizenship applications addressed and help deserving immigrants the right to be called a citizen of Canada.

Like writing to the Minister? This is a really good idea! I am personally waiting until December/early January 2013 (which will be more or less 6 months after submitting my RQ). If I haven't heard from CIC by then, I will definitely go ahead and write to the Minister.
Thanks again to the person who provided us with the minister's email ...

What other options will you suggest? ... 

T800Not let forget that the the burden of proof is on the applicant to prove he met his residency obligationIt's our duty as applicants. So, as frustrated it can be, I don't mind being imposed the RQ.  
However, what I don't agree with, is if our applications have to be seriously delayed !!! ( I went through some other threads in this website and there is somebody who has been waiting for more than 36 months! but I think the person had less than 1095 days) ...

Being drastically delayed (for any wait period of MORE than 7 months), when we know we are entitled to receive our Canadian citizenship, is really unfair.  And that's when we need to express our discontent to the right people. 

I can really well understand why after a certain wait time, some people feel like a 2nd class citizen. Especially knowing they meet ALL the requirements!





Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 5:01pm

Quote T800:
Quote So, instead of commenting on the recent RQ changes on this forum, what can each one of us effectively do to bring this to the attention of some decision makers who can actually get this issue of delayed citizenship applications addressed and help deserving immigrants the right to be called a citizen of Canada.


For the most part, I think that those directly affected should proactively advocate for a fair and timely processing of their applications. Thousands are affected. If even a small percentage of these individuals respond appropriately with reasonable requests, the impact will be felt, I am sure, and may be felt enough to induce CIC to take reasonably responsive measures to appropriately process legitimate applicants in a timely fashion while still reasonably pursuing the exposure of fraud.

For example: those who have gotten RQ and have, as a result requested the CBSA travel history, and that request is not being timely filled, such individual should submit an appropriate complaint to the Information Commissioner. No big deal. A simple complaint. A little inconvenient yes. But this is the sort of action that brings attention to real problems and it may very well induce a responsive action to address issues (which, I am thinking, is not merely that CBSA employ more resources to get this information out, but that someone re-examine the policies and practices leading to the imposition of this burden on CBSA).

Moreover, those who have gotten a pre-test RQ can make a specific request for information beyond just what is in GCMS. I do not know how CIC will respond to such requests. But if applicants are carefully composing requests based on what we now know from OB 407, asking for specific information relating to what criteria was applied in imposing RQ for example, asking for a copy of the File Requirements Checklist perhaps, maybe specifically requesting the information in Part B, as well as the Annex, and so on, this should set the stage for some policy/practice assessments regarding this.

-- Either CIC responds, giving the information, and of course just the fact of such requests by more than a few applicants will almost certainly result in some discussion at policy-making levels in the Ministry,

-- or, CIC declines to give this information, in which case the applicant can follow-up with a complaint to the Information Commissioner . . . which is almost certain to initiate some policy-level conversations

In this regard, it is my impression that the Information Commissioner will not necessarily roll over easily for CIC on this stuff. They do, occasionally, take agencies to court to compel disclosure, with permission from the person requesting the information. And, I think individuals also have some degree of right, themselves, to also challenge, in Federal Court, decisions to not disclose information.

Just these proactive measures, alone, done by a significant number of affected applicants, could have a profound impact. Citizenship advocacy is a profound, powerful tool in a country like Canada. And these things would be entirely reasonable to do. I am not in favour of actions taken to punish agencies, let alone individuals working within agencies; not much in favour of petitions or such. I think the government has legitimate avenues available for reasonable recourse when an agency or department of government is not conducing its affairs reasonably or fairly or justly. If people take advantage of those avenues, real and positive change is the common result.

Letters may be of some help, but . . . well, I tend to doubt their efficacy. Letters should, of course, be brief, clear, and well-founded, in an appropriate style, tone, and language.

I do not say all this lightly. I really do understand that there is a problem with fraud. I have defended much of what CIC does, overly so in some people's view, on many occasions. But it is clear: to the extent that it negatively affects applicants for whom there is no articulable reason to doubt their qualifications, the recent expansion of RQ is draconian, its reach is unfair, the process is abusive and the timing not reasonable.



-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 2:29pm

I am still wrestling with the particulars of how-to obtain information.

Again, I think it would be helpful if more applicants, that is applicants who have been given RQ despite being legitimate, well-qualified applicants who had 1095+ days actual presence and who fully and accurately disclosed all absences, were to make specific personal information requests seeking details using a carefully composed request asking for a copy of the File Requirements Checklist perhaps, maybe specifically requesting the information in Part B, as well as the Annex, what criteria was used in deciding to impose RQ, and so on.

To obtain personal information from CIC, in more detail than GCMS/FOSS, see the form linked at http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/tbsf-fsct/350-58-eng.asp - this Treasury Board page for Personal Information requests.

A web page that may answer most questions about making information requests generally is http://www.infosource.gc.ca/emp/emp01-eng.asp#how - the infosource.gc.ca site .

And the Treasury Board links to forms for ATI requests generally ($5 fee required) can be found at http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/tbsf-fsct/350-57-eng.asp - this Treasury Board page .



-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: freedom10
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 3:36pm
Thanks


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 7:47pm
You should, however, do the request for personal information. That is not a complaint, in itself, but I suspect that if this is done by many of those given RQ, despite being well-qualified and so on, it will have an impact. It really should lead to some review. Seeking legitimate recourse is usually more effective than railing against the wind, so to say.

-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: Wannavote2012
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by freedom10 freedom10 wrote:

Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:




I acknowedge that there is, probably, a huge problem with fraud in the immigration and citizenship process, and that CIC really needs to implement policies and practices to address and diminish this problem. The measures they take, however, must absolutely be fair and just, and timely processing legitimate applications without imposing unreasonable demands of applicants is very much a part of what should be absolutely required, not just expected, but absolutely required. 




I do not say all this lightly. I really do understand that there is a problem with fraud. I have defended much of what CIC does, overly so in some people's view, on many occasions. But it is clear: to the extent that it negatively affects applicants for whom there is no articulable reason to doubt their qualifications, the recent expansion of RQ is draconian, its reach is unfair, the process is abusive and the timing not reasonable.  


Very true dpenabill, you echo my sentiments. You see we are highly educated professionals, and being meted this kind of a treatment feels highly unjust. It hits one's morale and the general sense of well-being which attracted us to Canada in the first place. 

I don't know (I am not trying to be a pessimist here) but I feel no complain is going to make a difference. I feel like I am up against a wall here. 
 
@freedom10,
I will go with dpenabill on this, I always said on this site that it is good to letting out our frustration here but nothing will ever change unless the government start hearing about us... You have to understand that immigration or the perceived abused of the immigration system is a very populist subject and this government knows it...They can implement the worse policies and Canandian citizens will go along with it as long as they say it is to stop the abuse or perceived abuse, there are quite a lot of examples, recently being the way they stopped certain medical coverage of refugies, you should had seen the comments I was reading on the news stories, horrible, it made this government look like angels but I understand that it is human nature to blame others for your own frustrations.
 
The point I am trying to make is like dpenabill said you have to ask for a fair and just process, and only us care enough to demand it... I was able to see my MP and I told him about it and funny enough he told me he had heard already about it, sadly he is a Liberal and they don't have too much power but at least he knows about it...The GCMS/FOSS request idea is not bad either, CIC has to understand that at the end of the day, they work for us, we pay taxes (and oh so much) and we deserve and demand a better service. Since coming on this site, things have gotten worse at CIC, I used to see so many reports of tests, oaths, now it is all RQs, ppl asking if there is any report. If each of us use legal means outside of this site to make your voice heard than you would had made a big difference....I know they know we are future voters so they need us more than we do.. For now, I know one party that has lost my vote no matter what they say or do...It will be hard, even in 3 years, to get this feeling of being treated like a second class citizens out of my mind for sure! 


Posted By: timbit_TO
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 11:44pm
When I previously suggested an appeal of the redactions in CIC's response to the OP ATI request I was mistakenly relying on the guidelines published by the provincial (ON) Information Commissioner, specifically http://www.ipc.on.ca/images/Resources/up-num_1.pdf - Practice Guideline No. 1

In particular on p. 4 it sets out a template that provides the requester with a meaningful explanation of why certain information is withheld.

This is clearly not the practice followed by the ATIP unit at CIC.  I believe that part of the reason why lies in the difference between the provincial and the federal statute:

In particular section 29 (1) of the http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90f31_e.htm - Ontario Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act provides that




-------------
Law (the). Nobody knows what it is.
Gustave Flaubert, Le Dictionnaire des idées reçues


Posted By: akella
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2012 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by timbit_TO timbit_TO wrote:

  • I can't grasp how the requester can possibly make a meaningful appeal, knowing neither what was withheld nor for what reason.

timbit_TO, do you mind reviewing and providing your perspective on this - http://www.oic-ci.gc.ca/eng/inv_inv-gui-ati_gui-inv-ati_discretion.aspx - http://www.oic-ci.gc.ca/eng/inv_inv-gui-ati_gui-inv-ati_discretion.aspx as this is the manual that will be used by the Office of the Information Commissioner when investigating a complaint?

Edit: actually this - http://www.oic-ci.gc.ca/eng/inv_inv-gui-ati_gui-inv-ati.aspx - http://www.oic-ci.gc.ca/eng/inv_inv-gui-ati_gui-inv-ati.aspx , which is a start page for the guide.

Only 2 exemptions claimed to censor OB407:
  • 16(1)(c)
  • 21(1)(b)


Posted By: Vancan2012
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 2:04pm
Does anyone have experience with petitions? I think creating a petition against the CIC citizenship processing timeline and lack of information in addition to the call centre being unavailable to most people is in order. A class action would even be better to ensure the agency staffs its offices properly. I don't think CIC has the legal right to fail such a big number of people in the matter of due process. Anyone?


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 3:44pm
As I indicated previously, I am no fan of petitions. Short of those which gain huge momentum, and are very well crafted to begin with, I highly doubt their efficacy, their influence.

And, a petition may very well miss the mark in terms of what is wrong or how to address what is wrong. We are still operating in the dark in may respects until we get more precise information.

If even a half dozen or more of those directly affected make the detailed request, the ATIP request following the forms in the links I posted above, requesting detailed information about the criteria employed in selecting their application for RQ, that alone, I strongly believe, will wrinkle some brows at CIC. I am not talking about just getting GCMS records, but making the more detailed request, using what can be discerned from OB 407 in drafting the language of the request.

Additionally, I think it is important for those who have requested their CBSA travel histories and who are not getting a timely response to make an appropriate complaint to the Information Commissioner. Again, just a half dozen or so of these is going to bring this to the attention of someone outside CBSA or CIC, someone who (there is at least a fair chance) will elevate the level of inquiry behind this whole scheme.

And I think it is crucial, absolutely crucial, that anyone who has already taken the test, already submitted a response to RQ, and is just waiting, to make the detailed ATIP request and specifically ask for a copy of the referral and accompanying memos and accompanying documents that were sent to the office of the Citizenship Judge.

-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: slx
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2012 at 5:49pm
I'm wondering if it would make sense to bring this issue to attention of journalist crowd, say The Star or The Globe and Mail?


Posted By: goal80
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2012 at 2:06pm
 
Nwtspam, the link to the documentation is not working, can you please re-upload it
 
Thanks a lot
 
 
Originally posted by nwtspam nwtspam wrote:


Internal CIC Operational Bulletin 407 - May 3, 2012 

Obtained under Access to Information Act by nwtspam

Standardizing the preparation of citizenship grant applications

Background
An Internal Audit of the citizenship program conducted from December 2010 to April 2011 identified a lack of evidence on file to support declared absences and demonstrate the basis for grant decisions. The audit also identified inconsistencies on the type of documentation that is retained on file to demonstrate compliance to legislative and policy requirements.

File preparation is one of the key Read where the implementation of consistent procedures is beneficial and helps ensure the integrity of the citizenship program. Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) officials and citizenship judges both..................................................................................................................................................................

You may view the document at this Google Docs link:
http://docs.google.com/open?id=0By9o70015IRPVXgwRnAyNU9jMjg - http://docs.google.com/open?id=0By9o70015IRPVXgwRnAyNU9jMjg

Read the document at your own risk. Contact CIC call centre for any further information. Thank you Edmonton2011 for uploading the file(s). 


Posted By: akella
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2012 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by goal80 goal80 wrote:

 
Nwtspam, the link to the documentation is not working, can you please re-upload it
 
Thanks a lot
 

Link works fine for me.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 1:20am

post from RQ timeline, but more or less about the OB 407 process --
Quote EasyRider:
Quote I just don't understand the role of post RQ interview.
What happens if one submits great RQ response, but then sells his house in Canada and moves to the US, for example? If officer will find this out, will he create a note to CJ or what? He can't issue second RQ.
All evidence related to residence during relevant period was already included in RQ response, so how can what is revealed during interview (post-RQ events) can possibly affect a case (unless you didn't commit a fraud and fabricate documents of course)? It's like saying that the present can affect the past which is a nonsense logically.
Seems like post-RQ interview should be mostly for identity/passport check and don't focus on post-RQ events since I don't understand how you can affect past events from the present.


It is not as if OB 407 announces what checklist they are using, what it is about, what exactly the interview will be like, but we can infer that it will not be too different from what it was before, it will probably vary a good deal from one person to the next, because the facts and circumstances and questions will vary from one person to the next.

That said, a big part of it is, almost certainly, exactly what you refer to: the identity/passport check. And the passport check includes a comparison between stamps and residency/absence declaration, and a comparison between the photo-copy submitted and the original. And it includes the way the applicant answers questions during this, leading to the other, almost certainly, big part, credibility.

That is: a very big part of it is probably, almost certainly, about credibility. What the papers show versus what a person in the flesh says, what their demeanor is. I still get the sense that a lot of people do not recognize how much weight an applicant's credibility can carry, or how damaging it is when compromised. Credibility cannot be measured by counting days, or looking at credentials. It is an intangible. Easily fractured. Nearly impossible to rehabilitate once broken.

And, of course, residency is not the only qualification. There is the test for Canadian knowledge (for most, not me). There is the language requirement (for most, not me, not that would be an issue for me). They proposed the new regulation this past spring but as yet I do not know when it will actually be implemented, pursuant to which applicants will be required to submit proof of meeting the language requirement at the time of applying. For now, though, the test and interview is it, that's the extent of language testing one gets unless they are, for one reason or another, required to attend an in-person meeting with the Citizenship Judge.

But, this part I am not sure why it has not been grasped better: the interview is only post-submission of the response to the RQ. It is not really "post-RQ" . . . post-RQ is after the Citizenship Judge assesses and determines whether the residency requirement was met. The CIC officer who reviews the RQ submission before the test/interview is not making any determination of residency. At that point, according to OB 407, the purpose of that review is ONLY to PREPARE better for the interview. So the officer can ask more appropriate questions relevant to whatever questions about residency there are. This is NOT a decision-making review. Even the further review the officer does, following the interview, taking into account everything including what is learned in the course of the interview, is NOT about deciding the residency issue. That is for the CJ.

The Citizenship Judge decides the residency issue.

Only the CJ makes the residency determination. And that comes later.


Go back and look at OB 407. There are a lot of gaps, still, but the procedural sequence of steps themselves is well outlined (just that the more substantive criteria considered in the steps has been left out), particularly when put in context with the other steps not directly affected by a pre-test RQ.

As for this statement:
Quote All evidence related to residence during relevant period was already included in RQ response, so how can what is revealed during interview (post-RQ events) can possibly affect a case (unless you didn't commit a fraud and fabricate documents of course)? It's like saying that the present can affect the past which is a nonsense logically.
First, who confirms, definitively, that all the evidence relevant to residence was already included? That is, perhaps, one of those things they are looking for, to identify whether or not an applicant conveniently left out a few details, for example.

Secondly, again, credibility, credibility, credibility. Does the whole story add up, from the day the applicant became a "client" to that day that the case is being looked at, at the time of a review of the file, again later at the time of the test/interview, and again still later when the final review is done, and if it goes to the CJ for a meeting/interview/hearing, then to that date. The whole picture. From arrival to the moment. It is all a part of who the applicant is, and who the applicant is paints a picture of how reliable the applicant's reports and evidence and so on might be. It is a bit of reading-the-tea-leaves, sure, they do not have a crystal ball, all they have is evidence and the real person, and just how well does all that evidence match the real person? That's for them to figure out as best they can.


Main point that seems to be overlooked is that there is not going to a definitive assessment of residency based on the response to RQ alone. No sign of any decision-making of that sort so much as even hinted between the lines of OB 407. Not until it is in the CJ's hands and the CJ is making that ultimate determination.

So, again, with emphasis: the Citizenship Judge decides the residency issue.

Only the CJ makes the residency determination.

And that comes later. Well after the interview with a CIC officer.




-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 2:33am

In an effort to keep related information connected:

Quote akella:
Quote My copy of OB407 with some additional info. Request was for OB407 with Annexes (Annex A: File requirements checklist, Annex B: General instructions for File Prep Templates, File analysis template, and Prohibitions template). You will notice that OB407 itself was censored in a slightly different way (actually, first version by nwtspam has a few more words left uncensored).

https://rapidshare.com/files/2726509925/OB407_Expanded.pdf

I am not very happy with the result - as they just blacked out whole pages, making it hard to assess whether exemptions were applied appropriately. But you can infer the amount of paper they have to complete now.

Will probably be appealing this.





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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 2:44am
The following is a continuation of a discussion taking place in the Timeline - Toronto St.Clair (Oper. Ont.) office topic ( http://www.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2578&PN=49&title=timeline-toronto-stclair-oper-Ont-office - this is a link to recent page there ).

I continue the discussion here because it really is mostly about the impact of OB 407 and the timeline for RQ cases in the wake of OB 407.

I will say this categorically: I very much doubt that everyone who has been given pre-test RQ will have to wait for 14 months, beyond when they submitted their response, to be scheduled for the test. Just not likely. Some, sure, because some will be referred for an investigation or some other inquiry will sidetrack the file. But for most, no, that is simply not likely.

Of course that is to a large extent my opinion, and thus is offered for what it is worth.

We should find out by the end of year, by which time (or sooner, at least not much later), I predict, many of those given pre-test RQ this spring and summer will see notices for scheduled testing, much sooner than 14 months from the date they submitted their response to the RQ.

Thus, for example:
Originally posted by akella akella wrote:


Originally posted by dontmindhelping dontmindhelping wrote:


In addition, one of the biggest differences, as you have pointed put, is that RQs need to be reviewed before they can be scheduled for test. As a result, people who are issued RQs pre test, are going to wait quite a long period of time for their test to be scheduled, because their RQ is in queue, along with the rest of the RQs, so that they can be reviewed in order.
There is something very wrong with this process if it had been set up this way. Thus, any work by CPC-S and other agencies (requesting & providing clearances) goes down the drain, because any checks ordered by CPC-S will undoubtedly expire if my pre-test RQ now has to wait 14 months to be reviewed at St.Clair. And then they have to redo the whole background check thing again. Very effective.


No, I am quite confident it is not set up that way. Not certain of course. But that is not what OB 407 suggests. That is not what would be consistent with the preliminary, in-preparation-for-the-interview type of review the OB 407 procedure calls for (and which review is not the same as the review done in preparation for the referral memo . . . the File Analysis Template used to submit the case to the CJ).

And overall, right, something would be very wrong if that was the way the process has been set up to work.

General rule: if it doesn't make sense, that is probably not how it works. (Variation of what is known as Occam's Razor.)


Regarding clearances:

For the vast majority of applicants the clearances occur in the background. They are requested by Sydney but the file is transferred to the local office in the meantime anyway, no waiting for the clearances. In the vast majority of cases the clearances pose no delay in local office processing.

They are electronically entered in GCMS.

Two of the three so-called clearances, RCMP and GCMS, can be and usually are accomplished by routine electronic queries which take no more time than a simple google query would. Note, for example, many people referred to secondary upon returning to Canada are screened this way, in minutes, while they are sitting in the waiting area, waiting their turn to talk to the CBSA officer handling immigration at that POE.

Moreover, every time a CIC officer takes any action on a citizenship file, they are required to do a GCMS query for the client. There is, in effect, no expiration of the GCMS clearance, or, rather, in the practical sense it expires immediately and must be redone every time the file is acted upon.

As for CSIS, no one here knows much at all about their clearance process. For the vast, vast majority it is not an issue and will not be an issue.

I realize that many report waiting for separately processed security clearances. In contrast, though, most applicants do not see any hint of the clearances. Most applicants, by a wide, wide margin, do not have any impact on their timeline due to security checks or clearances. If they are redone, they are done concurrently (or, as I already suggested, they are done by a simple query taking just minutes).

Sure, for those applicants who, for whatever reason, there is a heightened level of security scrutiny, there is probably an impact. I suspect most, if not nearly all such applicants, are aware that they are among those likely being scrutinized more this way. They can anticipate longer processing times accordingly. That is not relevant, however, to the processing timelines for the vast majority of applicants, and probably not the majority of RQ'd applicants (recognizing, sure, applicants with security issues are, of course, are also more likely to be targeted for residency issues).

I would not worry one bit about security clearances delaying the process . . . unless, of course, you know of some reason to worry. Those who have been required to submit fingerprints, for example, sure, there may be something that means the processing in their case will be affected. The vast majority of applicants are never asked to submit fingerprints, and this is not part of the RQ process generally.

Referral for investigation is a separate matter. Statistical reports suggest that the number of cases referred for an investigation is actually few, but of course it does happen. These do appear to put a case on hold . . . that is, the case goes on the shelf, so to say, until the results of the investigation are returned. So, yes, if one's case is referred for investigation, that is going to delay the process. CIC does not share much information about its investigation procedures. Few here should be involved, but again, among all applicants, applicants with cases triggering RQ are naturally more likely to also be applicants triggering an investigation. Cases do get delayed and sometimes they get delayed for rather extended periods of time. I pray that mine never falls into that category. In any event, referral for investigation is separate from the periodic checking of an applicant's GCMS or RCMP record.

A note about how it will "take time" to review and take action on a RQ'd case:

It does not take long. I do not know what the actual time standards are, fifteen minutes, or forty three minutes, or three hours, or five and a half hours. But I am very confident it is not like it takes days. CIC does not give officers days to do a review and take action on a RQ file. I am quite sure of that. Hours maybe, not days.

The delay, the long time line, like everything else at CIC, is all about the queue, all about how long the file sits in the to-do-something-bin waiting for someone to pick up (open) the file and do that something.

When they pick it up, when they open it, it gets done. That is, that task gets done.

That is why dontmindhelping cannot be right about the review process being the same for pre-test RQ as it was for RQ imposed at or following the test under the previous process: The task to do next for the pre-test RQ is not to conduct a full, decision-making review of the file, but to simply do a preliminary, in-preparation-for-the-interview type of review. Not all questions must be addressed at this stage. The File Analysis Template does not get completed at this step (see the recently linked, by akella, version of OB 407 and how many pages referring to the File Analysis Template are redacted: that is going to take some time, though still not days, to complete, and that is not a task to be done until after the test-interview, not preliminarily to the test interview).

What is much more likely is the converse, that is, that it is not that the OB 407 process, for pre-test RQ, will be the same as for the RQ previously imposed at the time of the test or following the test, but rather that for all those RQ cases in which a referral had not already been made to the CJ, they will now go through the same process in terms of the CIC officer conducting a review and completing the File Analysis Template, the same as that step is for the pre-test RQs . . . but not the same as that preliminary, in-preparation-for-the-interview type of review.

So the review attendant the preparation of the referral will be the same, regardless of when RQ was imposed, and it will be the same as that imposed by OB 407 (requiring the officer to complete and submit the File Analysis Template). But again, that should not be confused with the review which will precede scheduling the test-n-interview.

I do not know, but I would expect something like this in local office procedure, something along the lines:

-- someone in a clerical position does the receiving and filing of the response to RQ, and in doing that makes the proper notation for the case to move forward to scheduling for the test/interview; this might include some kind of check list to see if there has been a substantive, responsive, submission of the RQ requested, but more or less a checkbox sort of thing to indicate what has been submitted, perhaps what has not been submitted

-- prior to the scheduled test, the file becomes the responsibility of an appropriate CIC officer, who is responsible for doing the preliminary, in-preparation-for-the-interview type of review prior to the time the test-interview is actually scheduled

-- that officer should be the one (but might not always be the same one) who actually conducts the interview at the test; results of the interview will be noted and become part of the file

-- that officer then will (or at least that officer should) conduct the assessment review which includes the full preparation of the file for review by the Citizenship Judge, this includes, in particular, completing the File Analysis Template; that review will, of course, be based on everything which is part of the file, including the RQ response and observations/conclusions based on the interview

That last step was likely to be pretty much the same for RQs from the old process but still pending. Obviously the other steps could not be the same since there was no RQ submission prior to the test-interview.

The last step may be delayed for various reasons: requests for more information made to other government agencies/departments; referrals for investigation; or . . . this is where what is redacted from the procedures outlined in OB 407, and its annexes, leaves us in the dark more than a little . . . for some applicants there are probably a variety of pitfalls in the process that can delay the final assessement by the CIC officer.

My strong inclination is to think that if anything will be "the same" it is more likely to be that RQ'd applicants will be scheduled for testing/interview along the same timelines as those not given RQ, except that those given RQ will be delayed that upfront period of time (45 days plus some) it takes to submit the response to RQ, because they will not be queued for scheduling until after the resonse to RQ has been received (which is not the date it is delivered, but rather the date it is opened and filed).

Bottom-line: I do not think scheduling for the test itself will be delayed by more than a year from the date applicants respond to a pre-test RQ. I suppose it may approach a year (some people are reporting that local office are taking up to nine months to schedule even non-RQ cases for the test), but my opinion (yeah, just my opinion) is that pre-test RQ'd applicants will be scheduled for the test in not much longer than it takes to schedule applicants not given RQ -- although, again, that will be from when the submission in response to RQ is actually received, so it will probably be at least a few months longer, from the initial date of transfer, than for those not given RQ.



-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: dontmindhelping
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 5:51am
Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:

The following is a continuation of a discussion taking place in the Timeline - Toronto St.Clair (Oper. Ont.) office topic ( http://www.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2578&PN=49&title=timeline-toronto-stclair-oper-Ont-office - this is a link to recent page there ).


I do not know, but I would expect something like this in local office procedure, something along the lines:

-- someone in a clerical position does the receiving and filing of the response to RQ, and in doing that makes the proper notation for the case to move forward to scheduling for the test/interview; this might include some kind of check list to see if there has been a substantive, responsive, submission of the RQ requested, but more or less a checkbox sort of thing to indicate what has been submitted, perhaps what has not been submitted

-- prior to the scheduled test, the file becomes the responsibility of an appropriate CIC officer, who is responsible for doing the preliminary, in-preparation-for-the-interview type of review prior to the time the test-interview is actually scheduled

-- that officer should be the one (but might not always be the same one) who actually conducts the interview at the test; results of the interview will be noted and become part of the file

-- that officer then will (or at least that officer should) conduct the assessment review which includes the full preparation of the file for review by the Citizenship Judge, this includes, in particular, completing the File Analysis Template; that review will, of course, be based on everything which is part of the file, including the RQ response and observations/conclusions based on the interview

That last step was likely to be pretty much the same for RQs from the old process but still pending. Obviously the other steps could not be the same since there was no RQ submission prior to the test-interview.

The last step may be delayed for various reasons: requests for more information made to other government agencies/departments; referrals for investigation; or . . . this is where what is redacted from the procedures outlined in OB 407, and its annexes, leaves us in the dark more than a little . . . for some applicants there are probably a variety of pitfalls in the process that can delay the final assessement by the CIC officer.





If the RQ is sent by Sydney, the file is sent to local office and the local office awaits the RQ and documentation from the client. Once the RQ is received , it is matched with the file and placed on RQ shelf, to be eventually reviewed by an officer.

if Sydney did not issue RQ and sent the file to the local office, the local office will eventually do a thorough screening of the file following several pages of check list. At this stage, it is quite possible an applicant will be issued an RQ: if so, the applicant is sent a leter and RQ, and the file awaits RQ and documents, and placed on RQ shelf, to be eventually reviewed by an officer

If the file passed the screening at the local office, it is scheduled for test: the rest, you already know...

All RQs, whether issued before test or at test, are reviewed the same way: they must be assessed using a form, by the officer. Once assessed, Pre test RQs are sent for test, and after test, either sent for hearing or paper review. For RQs that were given at test, they are either sent for hearing or paper review. But all RQs, whether pre test or at test, are reviewed the same way, using the same form. the RQs given at test or pre test, are identical, and logically,  reviewed the same way. Pre test RQs are not given priority review over RQs given at tests. Procedures may change in some months, given the very high volume of RQs in local offices, but this is the procedure now.

As a whole, the RQ issued Pre test or at test is reviewed completely, not partly(not , as dpenabill assumes,preliminary, in-preparation-for-the-interview type of review ):all documentation and every part of the RQ is reviewed , following a form(several pages), which requires the officer to assess evey aspect of the application and documentation, and address any concerns he/she may have, at test and possibly , at the hearing afterwards.

When the applicant who was issued an RQ before the test, is scheduled for test, he/she can assume the RQ and documents were reviewed fully: the test is an obligation in the application process, and must be given to applicant, whether or not it is to be sent for hearing or paper review, afterwards. Of course, the interview at test may ease some of the concerns of the officer and may be the difference in the decision , as to whether the file goes for hearing or paper review, but, you can be sure the RQ was reviewed thoroughly and all documentation submitted, as well, prior to the test. It is not done any differently than if the RQ was given at test.

Logically, the number of officers has not increased since the budget cuts, and the number of RQs has increased dramatically since the new OB: unfortunately, applicants issued RQs pre test, will have to wait an important amount of time before they are scheduled for test, so that their RQ is reviewed.

Hopefully, procedure may change and applicants issued RQs, based on a certain factors, may be reviewed based on a different procedure, hence speeding up the process and test schedule. That is not the case now.



Posted By: chudir bhai
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 8:38am
you are saying these words with great confidence.. how do you know that pre and post test rq are handled in the same way?

DO YOU WORK FOR CIC?


Posted By: Clayton
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 4:13pm
Per your statement, I guess, the applicant who got RQ pre-test will have a shorter awaiting time (than those RQ on or after test) for oath schedule, right? Because citiznenship officials review all the documents and did an assessment on the applicant before giveing a test sechule, right?
 
Thanks. 
Originally posted by dontmindhelping dontmindhelping wrote:

Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:

The following is a continuation of a discussion taking place in the Timeline - Toronto St.Clair (Oper. Ont.) office topic ( http://www.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2578&PN=49&title=timeline-toronto-stclair-oper-Ont-office - this is a link to recent page there ).


I do not know, but I would expect something like this in local office procedure, something along the lines:

-- someone in a clerical position does the receiving and filing of the response to RQ, and in doing that makes the proper notation for the case to move forward to scheduling for the test/interview; this might include some kind of check list to see if there has been a substantive, responsive, submission of the RQ requested, but more or less a checkbox sort of thing to indicate what has been submitted, perhaps what has not been submitted

-- prior to the scheduled test, the file becomes the responsibility of an appropriate CIC officer, who is responsible for doing the preliminary, in-preparation-for-the-interview type of review prior to the time the test-interview is actually scheduled

-- that officer should be the one (but might not always be the same one) who actually conducts the interview at the test; results of the interview will be noted and become part of the file

-- that officer then will (or at least that officer should) conduct the assessment review which includes the full preparation of the file for review by the Citizenship Judge, this includes, in particular, completing the File Analysis Template; that review will, of course, be based on everything which is part of the file, including the RQ response and observations/conclusions based on the interview

That last step was likely to be pretty much the same for RQs from the old process but still pending. Obviously the other steps could not be the same since there was no RQ submission prior to the test-interview.

The last step may be delayed for various reasons: requests for more information made to other government agencies/departments; referrals for investigation; or . . . this is where what is redacted from the procedures outlined in OB 407, and its annexes, leaves us in the dark more than a little . . . for some applicants there are probably a variety of pitfalls in the process that can delay the final assessement by the CIC officer.





If the RQ is sent by Sydney, the file is sent to local office and the local office awaits the RQ and documentation from the client. Once the RQ is received , it is matched with the file and placed on RQ shelf, to be eventually reviewed by an officer.

if Sydney did not issue RQ and sent the file to the local office, the local office will eventually do a thorough screening of the file following several pages of check list. At this stage, it is quite possible an applicant will be issued an RQ: if so, the applicant is sent a leter and RQ, and the file awaits RQ and documents, and placed on RQ shelf, to be eventually reviewed by an officer

If the file passed the screening at the local office, it is scheduled for test: the rest, you already know...

All RQs, whether issued before test or at test, are reviewed the same way: they must be assessed using a form, by the officer. Once assessed, Pre test RQs are sent for test, and after test, either sent for hearing or paper review. For RQs that were given at test, they are either sent for hearing or paper review. But all RQs, whether pre test or at test, are reviewed the same way, using the same form. the RQs given at test or pre test, are identical, and logically,  reviewed the same way. Pre test RQs are not given priority review over RQs given at tests. Procedures may change in some months, given the very high volume of RQs in local offices, but this is the procedure now.

As a whole, the RQ issued Pre test or at test is reviewed completely, not partly(not , as dpenabill assumes,preliminary, in-preparation-for-the-interview type of review ):all documentation and every part of the RQ is reviewed , following a form(several pages), which requires the officer to assess evey aspect of the application and documentation, and address any concerns he/she may have, at test and possibly , at the hearing afterwards.

When the applicant who was issued an RQ before the test, is scheduled for test, he/she can assume the RQ and documents were reviewed fully: the test is an obligation in the application process, and must be given to applicant, whether or not it is to be sent for hearing or paper review, afterwards. Of course, the interview at test may ease some of the concerns of the officer and may be the difference in the decision , as to whether the file goes for hearing or paper review, but, you can be sure the RQ was reviewed thoroughly and all documentation submitted, as well, prior to the test. It is not done any differently than if the RQ was given at test.

Logically, the number of officers has not increased since the budget cuts, and the number of RQs has increased dramatically since the new OB: unfortunately, applicants issued RQs pre test, will have to wait an important amount of time before they are scheduled for test, so that their RQ is reviewed.

Hopefully, procedure may change and applicants issued RQs, based on a certain factors, may be reviewed based on a different procedure, hence speeding up the process and test schedule. That is not the case now.



Posted By: dontmindhelping
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Clayton Clayton wrote:

Per your statement, I guess, the applicant who got RQ pre-test will have a shorter awaiting time (than those RQ on or after test) for oath schedule, right? Because citiznenship officials review all the documents and did an assessment on the applicant before giveing a test sechule, right?
 
Thanks. 


[/QUOTE]

if the officer is satisfied after the interview, and the applicant passes his test, then technically yes: the officer will not send the file for hearing and will instead send it for paper review. If the judge agrees with the officer's RQ assessment and conclusions, he/she will approve the file and send it back to the officer for granting.

if the officer isn't satisfied at the test, then , the file will be placed in queue for residence hearing for a judge to perform.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 6:10pm


I acknowledge that my version is not authoritative. I do not really know how OB 407 will in practice be implemented, especially given the extent to which CIC has refused to share large portions of the relevant operational provisions and instructions.

I also recognize that at this point there will be no verification of how the process actually works until we see how it in fact unfolds over the coming months and year. (My version, we should see some pre-test RQ'd applicants being scheduled for the test by end of year or at least by March or April; in dontmindhelping's version, those given pre-test RQ will not see their tests scheduled (in the St. Clair office anyway) before late August, 2013. See below.)

The reason I put some work and emphasis into this, is that I really believe that anyone who received the pre-test RQ but who was well-qualified for citizenship and who promptly submitted a complete, accurate response to the RQ, should not worry much and should not anticipate that they will not be scheduled for the test for at least 14 months after submitting the response to the RQ. Any RQ'd applicant might face a delay of that duration, yes, or even longer, but I really believe that most can realistically anticipate a shorter timeline than that. And that is really all this is about, trying to outline what are realistic expectations for RQ'd applicants.

Moreover, this is not merely academic:
-- while most applicants are probably already well prepared for the test itself, many will want to study more thoroughly shortly before the test . . . so having a realistic expection of how soon the test might be scheduled may be important to such applicants
-- some applicants may be considering travel plans, and if such plans are potentially for an extended period of time, even if entirely within Canada, they are likely to want realistic expectations about when to anticipate getting notice for the test . . . many here have reported getting the notice for the test not much in advance of the date, so as many have reported, if they are anticipating a test notice (also applies to oath notice) they forego travel plans in order to avoid not getting the notice in time to appear for the test
-- moreover, importantly, many RQ'd applicants will want to do a final preparation regarding presentation of information and documentation which will support their residency declarations, so for this too a realistic idea of how soon the test/interview might be scheduled is of much interest to many applicants

Thus, to my view this warrants the attention, and as I previously said, a couple times now, I really do not believe the version given by dontmindhelping, including dontmindhelping's confirmation of what canuck25 says a MP reported about the timeline.

Overall it does not matter who is right . . . and again, by March at the latest (I think by year's end is fairly likely) we should see. If no pre-test RQ'd applicants are scheduled for the test by then, it will appear that dontmindhelping was right, it will be 14 months after the RQ response is submitted before the applicant is scheduled for the test.

What matters, what I think is important, is that those given pre-test RQ anticipate being scheduled for the test and the interview sooner than that, sooner than sometime next fall. It is, though, also a matter of comforting those in this situation, that is, that if their application is well-documented, they are well-qualified, and this past June or July they submitted a thorough and accurate response to the RQ, they should not worry that it will be the fall of 2013 before they are scheduled for the test. Am I offering false hope in this regard? I truly think not. But, of course, the caveat still applies: anyone given RQ could find their case delayed extensively for a wide range of reasons.

*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***


As I acknowledge, I do not know, but I do share what my view is based upon.

My version is based on what I do know about the process to date (outlined and discussed in detail in hundreds of posts in this forum, with references and links to CIC webpages, statutes and regulations, operational manuals, operational bulletins, Federal Court decisions, and all that in conjunction with a continuing reading of, a critical reading of, reports in this and other forums going back over the last three/four years), and what I can extrapolate from OB 407 in particular, subject to what is in those parts which have been redacted, and subject to the complete redaction of Annex A containing instructions for the File Requirements Checklist, and extensive redaction of Annex B containing instructions for the File Preparation Templates, with nearly all of the instructions for the File Analysis Template being redacted.

As I said, if my impression is at all close to accurate we should begin seeing, by the end of the year or at least in the first quarter or so of next year, some applicants given pre-test RQ getting notice that their test is scheduled.

If, as dontmindhelping says, the test will not be scheduled until the full RQ review is completed and if the purported report from a MP about RQ timelines is accurate, as dontmindhelping says it is, no one given pre-test RQ will be scheduled for the test before late August 2013 (14 months after submission of response to RQ, based on earliest pre-test RQs going out the second week of May and a response sent within 30 days or so).


*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***


The most obvious discrepancy in the version given by dontmindhelping is the failure to distinguish between the File Requirements Checklist and preparation of the File Analysis Template in residence cases. dontmindhelping refers to a single "form" to be completed.
Quote All RQs, whether issued before test or at test, are reviewed the same way: they must be assessed using a form, by the officer. . . .
As a whole, the RQ issued Pre test or at test is reviewed completely, not partly (not , as dpenabill assumes,preliminary, in-preparation-for-the-interview type of review ):all documentation and every part of the RQ is reviewed , following a form(several pages), which requires the officer to assess evey aspect of the application and documentation, and address any concerns he/she may have, at test and possibly , at the hearing afterwards.
(Note: the citizenship official in CIC does not participate in the "hearing" and the File Template Analysis should be complete well before the hearing, so it is not at all possible that this "form" can address any concerns the citizenship officer would have at the "hearing," which, again, the officer does not even participate in. The "hearing," if there is one, is with the Citizenship Judge.)

My sense is that the form being referred to here, by dontmindhelping, is the File Analysis Template. Well, it must be that, otherwise dontmindhelping's version is completely off the mark, since that is the key form to be completed in residence cases.

This account of the process by dontmindhelping glosses over, or ignores, the process outlined in OB 407:
Quote from page 3 of OB 407
Quote As the new checklist now includes a portion that the local office must complete before the applicant appears for their test/interview with a citizenship official, the file must be reviewed by a citizenship official at the local office prior to the applicant appearing for their test/interview event.
In instances where a completed residence questionnaire and supporting documents are on file before the test/interview with a citizenship official, citizenship officers will need to review this information as part of the pre-interview check. This will ensure that all questions can be addressed in the interview.
emphasis added


Note, there is no mention here of the CIC official completing the File Analysis Template "as part of the pre-interview check."

As has been discussed, it would not make sense for the CIC official to complete the File Analysis Template "as part of the pre-interview check."

There are many reasons why this would not make sense, but one of the most obvious reasons is that it cannot be completed as part of the pre-interview check. It cannot be completed prior to the interview because part of the OB 407 process requires the interview to be taken into account in completing the File Analysis Template.

If, as dontmindhelping says, this "form" must be completed as part of the review before the test is scheduled, but that form cannot be completed until the interview at the test is completed, that would be what Joseph Heller described as a Catch-22 . . . that is, neither can be done until the other is done, thus neither can ever be done.

Does not work that way, because that way cannot work, and because, quite simply, that is not the way OB 407 outlines the steps in processing cases selected for RQ.

This does not, of course and unfortunately, illuminate the full nature or extent of the review (of the RQ response) conducted "as part of the pre-interview check." (Note, for emphasis, this language about the "pre-interview check" is not mine, but is taken from OB 407.) It is not clear just how thorough that review, the review attendant the pre-interview check, will be, and especially so since the instructions for completing the File Requirements Checklist . . . which is, I think, the primary "form" being followed and completed up until the time the CIC citizenship official actually undertakes to complete the File Analysis Template (which I believe will be done following the test/interview, not before) are redacted, as are the instructions for completing the File Analysis Template.

The File Requirements Checklist is not completed at any one event, and is not completed by any single individual, but is commenced in Sydney (Part A regarding application completeness is to be completed by Sydney) and which is then built upon over the course of subsequent steps in processing the application.

Indeed, some of this form, the File Requirements Checklist, will not be completed until "after the citizenship judge's decision but before the citizenship ceremony." (From top of page 3 of OB 407).

There are many other parts of OB 407 which similarly indicate that the review done as part of the "pre-interview check" does not entail completing the "form" (the File Analysis Template) which the CIC citizenship official completes as part of the referral to the CJ in a residence case. See, for example, the part of OB 407 at the end of page 4 and going over into page 5, which discusses holds and makes reference to the requirement that local offices "review the RQ and supporting documents prior to inviting the applicant to their test/interview" with no reference to a requirement that the File Analysis Template be completed prior to inviting the applicant to the test/interview.

Also see the part of OB 407 which describes this form as
Quote a tool for citizenship officers to use when preparing files for the judge whenever an RQ has been requested. This second template is intended to replace the prvious memo format under Appendix A in CP 5.
(page 5 OB 407)

Recall that the memo format under Appendix A in CP 5 was specifically used in preparing the referral to the CJ. And, again, the referral to the CJ does not, will not, happen under OB 407 until after the test/interview and NOT before.

This is, indeed, what makes sense: that this "form," the File Requirements Checklist, is the "action" taken by citizenship officer in a final preparation of the entire file for transmitting the case to the CJ. (While specific instructions for the File Requirements Checklist are redacted from what CIC has publicly released, it is easily inferred that some of that form is specifically formatted to accommodate notes, observations, and conclusions from the interview itself).

Note, too, there are transition cases as well which clearly will not, cannot be processed the way in which dontmindhelping has outlined, although as of May 7, any residency case in which the referral memo was not yet completed, the new File Analysis Template form/memo must be used (see OB 407 section about "existing residence" cases as of May 7, 2012) . . . but, again, this is explicitly about preparing the case for the CJ and identifying issues/concerns, or the lack thereof, including conclusions, and reasons for those conclusions . . . and this is to be based on the entirety of the file, including observations and conclusions based on the interview (and thus, again, cannot possibly be completed prior to the interview).

I will acknowledge there is some ambiguity, perhaps even incongruity, in OB 407. In particular, in contrast to what the bulletin outlines for existing residence cases, for "new residence cases" it states:
Quote All applicants who are identified as being a residence case on and after May 7 must be given the new RQ. When the RQ and supporting documents are received, the citizenship officer is to prepare their analysis for the judge using the new File Analysis Template.


Perhaps it is this statement in OB 407 that underlies the dontmindhelping version (dontmindhelping offers no sources for that version). It is one of the few parts of OB 407 that appears to be consistent with the dontmindhelping version. However, that part of OB 407 is simply contrasting the approach to existing versus new residence cases, and it would be a mistake to interpret it out of context, without considering the particulars involved, including the particular steps specifically outlined in more detailed parts of OB 407, such as those specifying the pre-interview check. That is, this statement about how new residency cases are to be processed is, I think, clearly a general overview stating that the new procedures, as outlined and specified in the rest of OB 407, are to be applied and does not literally mean that upon receipt of the response to RQ that the citizenship officer's next step is complete the File Analysis Template (which, again, as I illuminate above, really is not even possible let alone intended, since the officer has to take the results of the interview into account when completing that Template, and that interview has not happened yet, will not happen until the test is scheduled and takes place).



-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 6:21pm

Correction: in one paragraph above I stated,
Quote This is, indeed, what makes sense: that this "form," the File Requirements Checklist, is the "action" taken by citizenship officer in a final preparation of the entire file for transmitting the case to the CJ. (While specific instructions for the File Requirements Checklist are redacted from what CIC has publicly released, it is easily inferred that some of that form is specifically formatted to accommodate notes, observations, and conclusions from the interview itself).


This was in reference to the File Analysis Template, not the File Requirements Checklist; that is, it is the File Analysis Template which is the "action" taken by citizenship officer in a final preparation of the entire file for transmitting the case to the CJ.

Thus, I meant to say, in this paragraph, that
Quote While specific instructions for the File Analysis Template are largely redacted from what CIC has publicly released, it is easily inferred that some of that form is specifically formatted to accommodate notes, observations, and conclusions from the interview itself.


-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: dontmindhelping
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 6:22pm
[QUOTE=dpenabill]


The most obvious discrepancy in the version given by dontmindhelping is the failure to distinguish between the File Requirements Checklist and preparation of the File Analysis Template in residence cases. dontmindhelping refers to a single "form" to be completed.
[quote]All RQs, whether issued before test or at test, are reviewed the same way: they must be assessed using a form, by the officer. . . .

Please do not put words in my mouth: I do indeed know the difference between both:

File requirement checklist: checklist of 7 pages which is both filled by Sydney and local office: 2 pages by Sydney and 5 pages by local office: these are done to prepare the file for test(at the local office level). It helps clerks prepare the file and there are several questions that help clerks screen the file for test: it also dettermines, based on questions, whether an applicant will be issued an RQ by the local office, prior to be scheduled for test.

File analysis template: it is the form officers use to review the RQ. It is also quite long and thorough and was created to help judges have more info of the assessment of the RQ.

the 2 forms have nothing to do with each other. Dpenabill, if you have a question and if I can answer it, I will.


Posted By: Clayton
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 6:22pm
I did learn a lot from your guys statement, appreciate!  Have a wonderful Thanksgiving day!


Posted By: dontmindhelping
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by dontmindhelping dontmindhelping wrote:

[QUOTE=dpenabill]


The most obvious discrepancy in the version given by dontmindhelping is the failure to distinguish between the File Requirements Checklist and preparation of the File Analysis Template in residence cases. dontmindhelping refers to a single "form" to be completed.
[quote]All RQs, whether issued before test or at test, are reviewed the same way: they must be assessed using a form, by the officer. . . .

Please do not put words in my mouth: I do indeed know the difference between both:

File requirement checklist: checklist of 7 pages which is both filled by Sydney and local office: 2 pages by Sydney and 5 pages by local office: these are done to prepare the file for test(at the local office level). It helps clerks prepare the file and there are several questions that help clerks screen the file for test: it also dettermines, based on questions, whether an applicant will be issued an RQ by the local office, prior to be scheduled for test.

File analysis template: it is the form officers use to review the RQ. It is also quite long and thorough and was created to help judges have more info of the assessment of the RQ.

the 2 forms have nothing to do with each other. Dpenabill, if you have a question and if I can answer it, I will.


I did forget to say that the file requirement checklist is filled out in 3 parts:
1-pre test: allows clerks to prepare file for test and based on guidelines, possibly issue RQ to applicant pre test
2-during test: review of passports, identification, etc..
3-post test: final review before submitted to judge for review.

The other form is only used by the officer when he/she reviews an RQ.The file requirement checklist is filled by Sydney and local office in all cases.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 8:41pm

I might ask, dontmindhelping, if you are saying that the "pre-interview check" review referred to in OB 407 entails the completion of the File Analysis Template? But that is what you have said, so I know the answer to that. And, as I have said, and explained with reference to my sources and my reasoning, I am quite confident that is wrong. So, I do not really have a question. I just want those pre-test RQ'd applicants who read this forum to be aware that I believe, quite strongly, that they should anticpate getting notice for the test/interview well before the fall of 2013, and thus to be prepared.

The pre-interview check I am talking about is in reference to this (taken from OB 407):
Quote where a completed residence questionnaire and supporting documents are on file before the test/interview with a citizenship official, citizenship officers will need to review this information as part of the pre-interview check.


And, to be clear, I think the main difference between our views is that in your view the full RQ review and completion of the "form" (the File Analysis Template) will be done before pre-test RQ'd applicants will be scheduled for the test. I, in contrast, am quite certain that the File Analysis Template is not completed prior to the test/interview being scheduled but rather cannot and will not and is not intended to be completed until the last step leading up to the transmitting of the file to the CJ.

Why this difference matters is really only about forecasting what the timeline will be, how long it will be before those given pre-test RQ are scheduled for the test/interview. That is, whether the queue for the pre-interview check for residency cases is queued along with files being reviewed in preparation for the referral to the CJ, or whether, as is my view, the queue for the pre-interview check for residency cases is queued with non-residency cases in queue for a pre-interview check and scheduling for the test/interview.

I should note, with some emphasis, that I also very much doubt the claim that it takes 14 months before the referral memo is done for purposes of transmitting a residency case to the CJ. I think it is significantly less time than that, at least usually (even though, obviously, not always, some cases do get stalled for various reasons, sometimes stalled for a long while). Thus, it may not make all that much difference. As I have posted elsewhere, my perception and understanding is that the real bottleneck in RQ cases, where the timeline stalls, is in the queue waiting for action by the CJ, not in waiting for the local office CIC citizenship officer to complete their analysis and make the referral.

That is, it is my impression that even if the pre-interview check for residency cases is queued with all other RQ cases and involves a thorough review of the RQ, I really doubt that is going to delay the scheduling of tests, for pre-test RQ'd applicants, for 14 months.

In any event, though, I did not put words in your mouth. You only refer to a single "form" without specifying which one. In doing this you fail to distinguish the role of the two major forms accompanying all residence case files: the File Requirements Checklist versus the File Analysis Template. Both are crtical elements in the residence case file.

The following is categorically not true as well:
Quote the 2 forms have nothing to do with each other.


Both forms are critical elements in the residence case file. The residence case citizenship file will have the File Requirements Checklist situated so that it is the first document to appear anytime the folder is opened. There will also be the File Analysis Template (not completed, however, I am fairly confident, until the case is ready to be transmitted to the CJ). Both most be completed in a residence case (the checklist, however, is not entirely completed until after the CJ makes a decision). The File Requirements Checklist includes notations regarding whether or not RQ has been imposed, and parts to reflect whether or not the response to RQ has been received, interview conducted, File Analysis Template completed and included, and so on. Among other events and actions to be recorded.

Note too, that OB 407 refers to the CIC officer reviewing the File Requirements Checklist as part of the pre-interview check, along with the review of the RQ submission in a residence case; no mention of the File Analysis Template being utilized at that step.

Part of why I am sure that the File Analysis Template is not done before the test/interview is that OB 407 specifically requires this form to be completed based on an analysis of all "the information submitted by the applicant." There is no doubt this is intended to include information obtained in the course of the test/interview.

This part of what you say is correct:
Quote File analysis template: it is the form officers use to review the RQ. It is also quite long and thorough and was created to help judges have more info of the assessment of the RQ.
Precisely! That is the final action taken by the citizenship official in preparing the file for the Citizenship Judge, completing the File Analysis Template. There is no hint that it was intended to be completed prior to the test/interview (and logically cannot be, since inclusion of the information obtained in the interview is to be included). Rather, it replaces the referral memo previously used.


Quote dontmindhelping:
Quote I did forget to say that the file requirement checklist is filled out in 3 parts:
1-pre test: allows clerks to prepare file for test and based on guidelines, possibly issue RQ to applicant pre test
2-during test: review of passports, identification, etc..
3-post test: final review before submitted to judge for review.


This leaves out the post-CJ-decision part; as I noted in my previous post, the File Requirements Checklist is not fully completed until after the CJ has made a decision.

Also glosses over the role of the checklist. It is significantly more extensive, more robust than the previously used forms CIT 0470 (File Requirements) and CIT 0466 (file referral forms); it is tailored more specifically to work with the GCMS system. It is also tailored to be a work in progress as the application and applicant pass through various steps. While the specific instructions for this checklist have been redacted, there is enough in OB 407 to see that this form is designed to be built on from step to step, including such steps as the pre-interview check, noting receipt of response to RQ when applicable, and other such related events or actions during the life of the individual application process. As I note above, the File Requirements Checklist is designed to chroncile things like events and actions directly related to residence cases as well as prohibition cases, and is an essential element in all cases, including residence cases.




-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration



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