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Judge hearing and events after that

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Category: Canada Immigration Topics
Forum Name: Canadian Citizenship
Forum Description: Commentaries outlining important issues in acquiring Canadian citizenship through naturalization
URL: https://secure.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19205
Printed Date: 04 Jul 2024 at 1:39am


Topic: Judge hearing and events after that
Posted By: sarin_j
Subject: Judge hearing and events after that
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2015 at 12:03pm
I became a PR in 2006 and lived in Mississauga and Milton area till 2010. After that I had to move to NY\NJ area due to a job related issue. I applied for Citizenship just before I moved after completing more than enough residency days above the 1095 days. I got my test date on March 2011 and RQ within a month. Sent in all documentation by Oct 2011 and then the wait began. Finally I was asked to send a few more details pertaining to my residency on July 2014 and finally in Feb 2015, I got a notice for a judge hearing. I read as much as I can about the hearing, gathered all my documentation including tax statements etc. and headed out. But what happened during the hearing was both shocking and disappointing.

My wife went in first and after an hour and half later, I went in. The judge was a woman named Nancy Siew (who I later found out that is a relatively new comer, appointed sometime in late part of 2014). The conversation started quite normally with she asking simple details like where you are from etc. and making brief comments about her interview with my wife.

Then the real process started. First of all she started off with an implication - from both her body language and her verbal statements - that "you are lying, I know". She asked me why I didnt have any exit or entry stamps on my passport for my trips outside of Canada !!! I was not sure if she asked because she honestly dont know or was she faking it. I responded by saying that when you go outside of Canada - btw my trips were all to US and they were all done by driving - you never touch a Canadian border post. You drive straight to the US side and if you have a US Visa and a valid I-94, no stamps are placed on your passport. And on your way back, you simple come to the Canadian border, present your PR card and they swipe it, ask a few questions and let you in. They never look at your passport unless there is a very pressing and valid need for it. She seems to have trouble believing that !!! Then she went through my tax documentations, my pay stubs etc. and then asked me to describe my absence from Canada in terms of dates. I had them all listed out in a piece of paper and I read it out for her. After noting them all down, she said "I have records to show that you have more absence than you have declared". I said, "show me the dates and I can explain them all to you". And she had a sheet of paper with dates and some other numbers\strings against those dates. I could see that they were entry dates for my PR card. She said you have these many dates of coming in but you haven't declared them. By looking at them I was positive that those were all one day trips I made across the border for various reasons including shopping trips. So I told her the same and also explained the pattern - one trip every month at least once during the first two weeks of every month - and their reasons (I had a low interest loan in US which I took towards downpayment of my home in Canada and I cross over every month to make deposits to my US account. Since I was a bank employee for a US Bank with operations in Canada, I had access to employee specific loan products with rates at prime I made use of it for buying my house in Canada). I also told her that the residency calculator explicitly states that same day trips like those need not be declared. She is not happy with that and I could see that she was desperately trying to poke holes in it often with erroneous results. For example she pointed out that the day I declared as a three day trip, there is no entry stamp  in her records. I pointed out to her that there is actually a record for that date but at the bottom of the sheet. She quickly moved onto the next one without acknowledging her mistake. Then there was another instance where she said that how do I know\believe that all those exit dates you declared are all the correct ones without any documented evidence? She picked one and said how do I know that you left on this date? Fortunately for me, I did have that date stamped on by US Border service on my passport and pointed out. She initially tried to play it down by saying I don't know, its a US stamp, its not Canadian etc. (seriously???) and then finally agreed that she would make a note of it in her notes !!! There were so many other mistakes she been making and she was cherry picking on the dates (like she picks one entry date and then claim that I actually left way before than the number of days I declared in my form), and ignoring every legal documentation - like my payslips, my tax records - and refusing to see the other - like my utility bills and receipts - saying that you can fake them. It was quite evident that she was trying to make a case for refusal but because of the evidence she was not able to. All the while she was claiming that she was trying to be fair !!! She then said its time for my lunch but I would stay to work on your case (which I do appreciate, but is it such a big deal if its her job to do a hearing?). Finally she said that she is not convinced that I was in the country for the said period and she needs a letter from my company stating my employment period in that building in Toronto and also vouching for my job related absences. I immediately pointed it to her that while the company can provide a letter vouching for my employment in the building, its not possible for them to vouch for my business trips because they are conduced under business managers discretion and is not handled by the HR. She said, whatever you can provide should be done and within 10 days. And as I was going out, she asked if you are a US Citizen, why do you wanna apply for Canadian citizenship to which I said, I have family and friends in and around Mississauga and I want to settle down there because that I way I can be closer to them. I immediately called the HR and explained the situation and like I expected, they said while they can get me the letter for my employment location, they can't write anything about my trips. So I immediately picked up the letter from my office and dropped it off at the CIC office in Mississauga.

Finally, today I got a call from this judge and she said I got the letter but it doesn't have the dates of your absence due to business trips. And then went on to say this is not enough, am trying to be fair etc. etc. I told her, I gave all that can be humanely possible and you are putting undue burden on me by cherry picking on them. If you approach a case with a closed mindset that the other person is lying under oath then no matter how much evidence I bring together, you can always say no to it. Honestly I was getting tired of being implied a liar and I just couldn't hold back. This seem to have ticked her off and she started on a tirade of "i sacrificed my lunch hour for you, i feel insulted, etc. etc.". I calmly said to her that I didn't insult her, but conveying to her that this is how she made both of us feel during the interview and we have complied in every way possible from our side to her demands. If you have a broken system thats not properly documenting people travelling between borders, you can't then hold that against somebody and claim that the other person is not telling the truth. She finally said she needs an explanation for the business trips not mentioned in the letter. I said, I will send her that letter and hung up. I typed up the same explanation and signed it and overnighted to the Mississauga office. 

I am at this point pretty sure that she is gonna deny my citizenship application. I  have read that you can go for a judicial review and its something better done through a lawyer. Anyone can recommend a good lawyer who can handle my case? Also, any other suggestion in this matter would be very helpful.

Thanks in advance.



Replies:
Posted By: ski
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2015 at 12:22pm
Make sure any other interactions with this judge are happening in presence of your lawyer, and ideally lawyer gets involved before you get denied.

Otherwise yes she will deny you will go to court and the court will believe the judge.

It is a pathetic and unfair process unfortunately.


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2015 at 12:36pm
I wish I lied about my absences from Canada as I could have easily withheld all those exits from Canada and still they won't be able to find out. I think its because I declared all of them that they got suspicious that I might be hiding more than am declaring. Her attitude was also shocking as she simply didn't want to see any other documentation that I brought. If you start saying that am faking utility bills and credit card statements and bank statements and tax payments (property etc.), then what evidence can you really bring to the table ????!!! 

Would there be more interactions with the judge? I think she pretty much seem to have made up her mind. And from what you said seems like court would always prefer the judge's statement over our claims?


Posted By: Canadiandesi2006
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2015 at 3:24pm

I'm sorry to hear the treatment you got from CIC judge. Besides taking an attorney with you for your next hearing.

You may consider filing a complaint with appropriate authorities how your hearing was conducted.

1) Hearing started with Judge accusing "You are lying"
2) Judge expected US stamp on every visit to USA, its US procedure & you can't do much
3) Daily visit to USA are NOT stamped in the passport (per CIC, its NOT required)
4) Despite presenting all proofs such as utility, employer etc, judge did not want to review them
5) Asked you to produce letter from employer for even single day trip to USA, its impractical.
6) Apparently, judge made up her mind even before reviewing doc's to deny you Citizenship.
7) Request - if possible hearing with other judge, considering it was NOT fair by any standards.

Looks like CIC and all their staff from Call Center to top bureaucrats are abusing the system.

 



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Canadiandesi2006


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2015 at 4:04pm
Thanks for the reply Canadiandesi2006. The judge didn't explicitly accuse me of lying. She implied it at every possible opportunity. Examples are like this.

1. At the part where she started with my entry stamps, she was like "we know about your trips, there were absences that you didn't declare" and there was a cheeky smile on her face. It was like "we know that you made trips and didnt declare it". It was not a question or inquiry but plain outright statement.
2. When I said, I can show proof of our stay by presenting proof like receipts, utility bill payments, she refused to see them and said "you can get them without staying in this country and I dont have time to go through them". That effectively translates into "you could have obtained without ever staying in this country".

She also didn't ask me to provide letter from employer showing every trip outside USA, but rather business trips. Though it might sound justifiable, the issue here is that since I got the job in Canada through an in-house transfer, my manager and the entire support group are from NYC. They simply allowed me to work from a Canadian office and recruit people I need to run the global support infrastructure. Effectively, I brought jobs into Canada though it was only for two years. So under this process there is zero HR involvement and every trip is paid for and managed by my manager. HR can't vouch for an event\trip organized by a specific group's manager. This is what I explained to her and despite she seem to be nodding to it, she repeated the same question today. If she understood, why keep asking? 

And it does seem like she made up her mind even before seeing us. How can I request another hearing with another judge? This hearing was NOT AT ALL fair and she seem to be more concerned about her lunch break than doing an investigation into my facts. Especially when such decisions can affect one's life in a significant way.

Its unbelievable that a citizenship judge is completely ignorant about border crossings and formalities involved with it. Its also unbelievable that she is manipulating the data to suit her argument. Example is like this.

She presented the entry stamps but they don't contain many trips that I made and declared. So its obvious that she don't have entry stamps for all my trips. But then when I point out this, she is refusing to acknowledge them instead choosing to pick dates from them to project a view that I was absent for more than declared number of days.

She apparently displayed an attitude that whatever evidence I provided could all be fake. She kept saying the burden of proof is on me, but if their system is broken and you are putting undue burden on someone to get practically impossible details, its a clear indication of bias. 

I don't know if there is going to be another hearing, but if it happens I sure will take a lawyer with me. Secondly, if anyone know how to request another hearing with a different judge, how do I move forward with that?


Posted By: ottawa321
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2015 at 4:04am
Complaint against Judge does not work. I made a complaint to the senior judge but he took Citizenship judge side. Then I made a complaint against sernior judge. they assinged a private investigator to hear both me and senior judge but again after finding my complaint correct dicision was given in favor of the senior judge. I even had a recording of entire discussion (80|minutes) with the citizenhip judge who use very bad language, spoke about my religion, about my country of birth etc... but they did not bother to get the recording from me and avoiding it all the time. So I believe complaint against judge would not work even there is a Protocol Addressing conduct issue policy which dealt with such complaints


Posted By: Harrikon
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2015 at 4:42am
Now this might sound weak, but if I were you, I would just reapply for citizenship. I know it is unfair and all, but this might be your only way out!

And you will get an RQ, but you will get processed much faster. Just make sure you hire a lawyer to fill out RQ/represent you in court. A lot of these lawyers say they won;t guarantee anything, but I have found in my experience, they too judge each case based on its own merits.


-------------
Applied: June 2012
Processing: December 2012
RQ and Test: December 2013
(Reason for RQ: unknown)
Oath: May 2015


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2015 at 6:56pm

Originally posted by sarin_j sarin_j wrote:


I became a PR in 2006 and lived in Mississauga and Milton area till 2010. After that I had to move to NY\NJ area due to a job related issue. I applied for Citizenship just before I moved after completing more than enough residency days above the 1095 days. I got my test date on March 2011 and RQ within a month. Sent in all documentation by Oct 2011 and then the wait began. Finally I was asked to send a few more details pertaining to my residency on July 2014 and finally in Feb 2015, I got a notice for a judge hearing. I read as much as I can about the hearing, gathered all my documentation including tax statements etc. and headed out. But what happened during the hearing was both shocking and disappointing.



I am at this point pretty sure that she is gonna deny my citizenship application. I have read that you can go for a judicial review and its something better done through a lawyer. Anyone can recommend a good lawyer who can handle my case? Also, any other suggestion in this matter would be very helpful.



A lot could be said.

Much of it, though, I have said before. Such as, for example, in the https://secure.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8848&PN=1&title=leaving-canada-after-applying-for-citizenship" rel="nofollow - topic "Leaving Canada after applying for citizenship" , including in particular my recent discussion about the http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/100163/index.do" rel="nofollow - Helen Wang case there, in https://secure.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8848&PN=17&title=leaving-canada-after-applying-for-citizenship" rel="nofollow - the topic Leaving Canada after applying .

For now, the cake is in the oven. Nothing will change the outcome; the CJ's decision now will be what it is. And while the outcome seems quite apparent, and not good, these things are very difficult to predict and you will not really know until you know, until you get notification of the denial or you are scheduled for the oath.

In the meantime, sure, the decision is whether or not to pursue an appeal, and if inclined to do so, to find the right lawyer for the job. And if you are at all inclined to go this direction, getting to it sooner rather than later is a good idea.

Must say, however, you should have recognized what you were up against. I do not know what you were reading, but I and some others have posted plenty in this forum that would have been a heads-up to anyone living outside Canada while the application was pending. Most of that is history now. Like going to the hearing accompanied by a lawyer, should-have-but-did-not.

Not sure you were paying attention, but since last August 1st, any CJ hearing was almost certainly a case in which CIC opposed the grant of citizenship and had submitted a memorandum of points and authorities (prepared using the FPAT) for why citizenship should be denied. I realize some here dismissed my oft repeated observations and cautions about this (but frankly their lack of credibility should have been obvious).

You have some time to figure out what to do. As noted, you might be surprised. The CJ might approve your application. Seems like not, but until you get the notice that your application has been denied you do not know for sure.

One note about the particulars: you are right, the "no stamps" refecting this or that trip is baloney. But if you were reading even a selection of the Federal Court cases I have cited repeatedly in this forum, you would see this baloney is on the menu rather often (the menu of excuses or justifications to discount an applicant's declared travel), and in particular the so-called "missing stamp" issue has been oft discussed, as it is indeed an oft recurring one. CIC often likes to hang, on missing stamps, a conclusion that the evidence is "inconclusive." Dealing with those would have been fairly easy for a lawyer.

Missing stamps really are not an issue except in particular situations, particular circumstances, and not usually at all an issue unless CIC focuses on them in the course of digging for reasons to challenge the application (which CIC will tend to do if the applicant is living abroad while the application is pending). Like scores and scores of successful applicants, I had dozens of trips, and not one stamp for any one them after the cancelled PR visa stamps for the day I landed, none at all. And no problems. But what CIC is essentially doing when it focuses on missing stamps is challenging the applicant to prove the declared trips . . . it is not so much that the absence of a stamp for this or that trip is evidence that the trip did not take place, but CIC, and in turn the CJ, has in essence pointed out that "no stamp, no supporting evidence of that trip, thus the burden is on the applicant to prove the trip - technically to prove the dates of presence by proving the dates of travel."

Thus, just explaining that it is common, if not the norm, for there to be no stamp for trips to and from the U.S., does not suffice. That does not put evidence into the record which supports your account of the trips.

And I understand fully that applicants in your situation are given virtually no warning that CIC and the CJ might take this tack in assessing residency . . . well, except there is plenty of discussion at this site which addresses this (sometimes lost due to the noise, sure, particularly among those who are more interested in complaining and not receptive to learning about how the process works and what applicants in a contested case need to know about how to navigate their way through CIC's minefields).

There have been a couple Federal Court cases of late which indicate there may be at least two Federal Court justices sympathetic to the lack of notice applicants are given regarding what they need to prove. I am suffering a monster head cold at the moment so my memory is fuzzy and my time on the key board is limited, but I will try to find those decisions. They probably will not offer any direct support for your case, but they do offer a glimmer of hope that a Federal Court justice could be receptive to an argument that the burden of proof imposed by the CJ unreasonably exceeded the balance of probabilities standard (the standard that should be applied). This is complex stuff, though, and there are probably a lot of lawyers not particularly well equipped to make the argument. And it is a tough argument to make persuasively even by the better lawyers (if I can find the two decisions I am thinking of, you might consider looking into the lawyers who represented the applicants in those cases).

And, unfortunately, there are some Federal Court justices who will simply not be sympathetic to your cause because you have been living outside Canada. (For example, see Justice Rennie's decison in the http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/100163/index.do" rel="nofollow - Helen Wang case ; noting though, that Justice Rennie has moved up to the Federal Court of Appeals of Canada . . . more about this below.)   



A note about your CJ: I do not know her, but there is no doubt that if she was a "recent" appointment, you know who did the appointing and what some key criteria were for getting the gig. At the Federal Court level, for example, it was no coincidence that it was a Harper appointment to the Federal Court (Justice Rennie) who, despite three decades of case law to the contrary, soon after taking the bench issued a decision that "residency means presence" (back in 2011), and he is the one who recently ruled there is no "jus soli" right to citizenship in Canada either (citizenship by birth in Canada is, rather, a statutory based status). Many of the current CJs have been appointed since the Conservatives first formed a government. No need to guess their inclinations in how they approach citizenship residency cases.

This government avoids being transparent (like the plague), but some aspects of its governing are totally transparent . . . and who gets appointed to positions like this is no mystery.

Former Federal Court Justice Donald Rennie, for example, was http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/news-nouv/ja-nj/2015/doc_33103.html" rel="nofollow - recently appointed to the Federal Court of Appeals of Canada . A big promotion. Quid pro quo? for his decision in the Galati challenge to Bill C-24?

That might be good news. I think Justice Snider retired (or left the Federal Court for some other reason) over a year ago, and now Justice Rennie will not get the appeal from a CJ's decision as he has moved up to the Court of Appeals. These two have been the toughest on citizenship applicants. There are a number of others who have been following and applying the decisions by Justices Rennie and Snider, but in any event there are two less before whom the odds of succeeding on appeal were dismal.




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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2015 at 2:02pm
Thanks dpenabill. I have always followed your posts with great interest and if you go back a bit you will notice that you have provided advise on my case before as well. The matter here is that after 2013, I kinda lost hope and figured that most likely I will never get the citizenship and stopped following all news about Canadian immigration. I also started winding down my affairs in Canada - like starting the process to close down my consulting business and selling my properties etc. Even when I was asked to provide more details about my residency in Aug 2014, I thought its just another ploy to wear you down. So after sending the required documentation, I didnt look at it until I got the notice about the hearing. And at that time I did return to this forum and started going through as much info as possible but at the same time got busy with digging all my documentation from the archives. So overall I didn't get much time to thoroughly think this through and in retrospect I think I did a big mistake in not taking a lawyer with me. I was also very confident that I have enough documentation to prove my residency and didn't think of the possibility that the judge might actually be trying to deny my request rather than trying to approve upon verification. In other words, I thought the system was honest about its intentions. I didn't think of the political implications you referred to above and since I stopped following Canadian immigration news since 2013, I failed to see the recent developments. 

After reading your post in its entirety, I can understand the overall approach of the CJ to find an excuse to deny my application. However, I am still shocked by the approach they are using. They say that the burden of proof is upon you but then proceeds to 1)bring up aspects which are factually incorrect (the mistakes she did in following her own data) 2)use data which they have free and instant access to but for us its either blocked or provided after considerable delay 3) not transparent on what aspects are gonna be challenged so that we can come prepared with relevant documentation some of which would require us to go through two different border agencies of two different countries and most important of all 4) use judges who are not competent in various complex aspects of international border crossing.

I think I was ill prepared and trusted the system too much. I believed that if you are honest and forthcoming things would be easy. I been proven wrong. I do understand that the majority of the blame is on me for not being prepared but am also thinking if you were going to a judge who is 99% convinced that you are faking the data, I am not sure if my data would have made any difference. Remember how she brushed off my pointing of the stamp in the passport by CBP? When she realized that she made a mistake at first she tried to dispute that it was not a Canadian stamp and hence can't be considered relevant and then tried to brush if off as not so important. That alone would have raised the quality of the data she had in her files. But she wanted to sweep it under the rug and move on. 

I am now frantically trying to gather my entry exit records from both US and Canadian side to support my case. It might be too late, but at least am gonna do whatever I can to fight this injustice. If I fail, at least this would serve as a lesson to those who are in similar situation so that they can learn from my mistakes. 


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2015 at 8:06pm

The caselaw I was thinking of, which might be of some support, were two recent decisions by the same judge, Justice Locke, which is not good news because that means there is only one justice rather than two who has overtly ruled against CIC and a CJ based on concerns about the nature of the process itself, about procedural fairness. One of these cases is the http://www.canlii.org/fr/ca/cfpi/doc/2015/2015cf142/2015cf142.html" rel="nofollow - Miji case (link is to French decision) , and the other is the http://www.canlii.org/fr/ca/cfpi/doc/2015/2015cf116/2015cf116.html" rel="nofollow - El-Husseini case (also in French) in which Justice Locke allows the applicants' appeal on the grounds that the applicants were, respectively (and in different ways) denied procedural fairness.

While these cases might not be that close factually to the situation you had, a big part of why Justice Locke granted these appeals is the lack of notice to the applicants what was missing, what would have made a difference. And that is at least in part what I see underlying your interaction with the Citizenship Judge.

What will ultimately matter, of course, is the CJ's actual decision and the reasons given by the CJ for that decision. And frankly, given your residence abroad since applying, many if not most Federal Court justices are not likely to be sympathetic. It could be a tough case make to a sympathetic judge let alone one who is not sympathetic.

The solicitors (lawyers) for the applicants in the above cases, the cases resulting in Justice Locke's decisions about procedural fairness, were Quebec lawyers, not from Toronto, one from Montreal, the other essentially Ottawa (Gatineau). My sense is they did a good job respectively. You can also find Toronto area lawyers by looking at other citizenship cases.


Quote I am now frantically trying to gather my entry exit records from both US and Canadian side to support my case. It might be too late, but . . .


Yeah, it is mostly too late. You will not be allowed to introduce any new evidence (at least not that will be considered by the Federal Court) in the appeal. But, a savvy lawyer might be able to use such evidence to illustrate what you could have brought to the hearing if you had been given notice that the dates you reported exiting or entering Canada were themselves disputed.


Potential arguments in the appeal:

This goes beyond what I know about how the issues might be raised and considered on appeal. But, in most other bureaucratic decision-making processes, procedural fairness requires applicants to be given reasonable notice if particular evidence or asserted facts are disputed. And, frankly, I have long failed to understand why this issue has not been more vigorously advocated in citizenship cases. There are many cases in which the Federal Court simply says, as CIC has argued, that the applicant has the burden of proof and if there are questions about actual dates of residency the applicant has failed to meet his or her burden of proof. But what has happened in some of these cases is that the applicant has submitted extensive evidence, including the applicant's own testimonial evidence of dates present in Canada, and has not been given notice that CIC is challenging that evidence. CIC challenges the overall conclusion, but it seems to me that if that conclusion is inconsistent with the evidence of record, there should be more than mere bald-faced skepticism to support it, there should be some actual evidence contrary to the evidence submitted by the applicant . . . and if there is, that procedural fairness should require that the applicant be given notice of such negative evidence, sufficient notice to give the applicant a reasonable opportunity to respond to it.

I am not a Canadian lawyer and I do not know how such an argument should be presented in particular, but the concept, it seems to me, is similar to when a visa officer reviewing a skilled worker PR application makes a negative decision based on rejecting the applicant's evidence of having been employed in a certain position by a certain employer . . . the applicant must be given a chance to respond to the negative evidence CIC is relying on in rejecting the applicant's evidence of that employment.

This goes to the balance-of-probabilities standard of proof the applicant must meet. The submission of competent evidence (and an applicant's testimonial evidence should be considered competent unless there is specific reason to doubt its credibility), on a matter of fact, should suffice to meet the balance-of-probabilities standard of proof as to that fact unless there is evidence to the contrary. If there is evidence to the contrary, my understanding in almost all other contexts (except citizenship cases) is that procedural fairness requires that the applicant be given notice of the contrary evidence or a copy even. I have seen not seen this argument made in citizenship cases, let alone made successfully, but I really do not understand why.

There have been other versions of the procedural fairness argument, such as was raised successfully in the two Locke decisions I reference above.



Whaaat haaappened? or the big crash of expectations

I understand the more emotive elements in your reaction to what happened in the hearing.

But there are at least two big aspects which separate your case from even most residency cases, let alone routine cases . . . which is to say, a lot of what you say was diametrically the opposite of what you expected, which largely comes down you being surprised by the extent to which you feel your case was approached negatively rather than objectively, is about your case in particular. Not that your case in particular is unique, the only case approached this way, or even all that unusual let alone rare.

To a large extent I addressed this in my previous post.

Those two aspects of your case in particular are:

(1) residing outside Canada after applying

(2) being scheduled for a CJ hearing after August 1, 2014    

There is more to it than just that of course, but those are the two aspects of your case in particular which distinguish your case from even the majority of citizenship applications involving RQ, let alone from the vast majority of citizenship applicants generally (the largely routine applications).

Number (1), residing outside Canada after applying, is what turned up the heat considerably, leading CIC to scrutinize and question your case in much detail, looking not to verify your assertions but for evidence that would support a finding that you had failed to prove your case, especially residency.

Number (2), being scheduled for a CJ hearing after August 1, 2014, is about the nature of the proceeding itself. It is not absolutely certain, but almost so, that after August 1, 2014, going to a CJ hearing is akin to going into a adversarial trial (it is a quasi-judicial proceeding) in which CIC is the opposing party and in which the opposing party (CIC) has already made a full submission of its case against you, the applicant.

I repeated this observation with some emphasis more for anyone else who might happen to still be using this site for information and is in a situation which might lead to a CJ hearing (acknowleging that use of this forum is way, way down). Applicants who have long been in a post-test RQ phase should be aware of the prospect of a CJ hearing and what that means. What it means is that they are, in essence, going into an adversarial quasi-judicial proceeding in which the adversarial party has already put together and submitted an extensive, thorough, and probably negative account of the case, and that the CJ has read this before the hearing even starts.

Your expectations were largely reasonable but only up to the point your case became destined for a CJ hearing.


Caveat re cost of appeal:

There are costs inherent to litigation above and beyond the lawyer's fees; and litigation is more emotionally challenging, more stressful, than most people realize. And, make no mistake, this is probably not a case that stands any chance without a lawyer, and a lawyer is going to cost thousands.

Additionally, there appears to be an increasing risk that the Federal Court could charge the applicant who loses with paying the Minister's costs. That is, there is a risk that the applicant could have to pay for the Minister's legal costs in addition to the costs of prosecuting the appeal itself (the applicant's own lawyer's fees for example).

Additionally, there are changes in the appeal procedures adopted in Bill C-24 with which I am not much familiar, but these may affect the manner and availability of judicial review now (I have not looked closely at this aspect of the coming into force provisions governing the implementation of the SCCA, that is the Strengthening Canadian Citizenship Act often referred to as Bill C-24).

Hopefully you kept an exact copy of everything you submitted to CIC so that a lawyer can make a reasoned, informed assessment of the case without having to do a lot of work (expensive work) just to evaluate whether or not it is worth pursuing the appeal.



Make a customized ATIP application very soon:

Make a customized ATIP application very soon! Specifically request a copy of everything CIC presented or submitted to the Citizenship Judge. You will not get all that. There are recent references in Federal Court cases to the FPAT (File Preparation Analysis Template) being a protected document. I do not know if this means the applicant is totally denied access to it, or that the access is restricted in a way that keeps it sealed from the public. But my sense is the former.

In contrast though, here too in almost all other proceedings, the applicant is entitled to a copy of everything the decision-maker considered, or to at least sufficient information about what was submitted to the decision-maker to give the applicant an opportunity to respond to its content.

Here too I am confused why this has not alredy become a battle-ground addressed by lawyers in citizenship cases.

But in any event, the sooner you make this ATIP request the better. You might want a lawyer's help in making it, but you do not want to delay making it.

This is either free or has a minimal cost (depending on the scope of what is specifically requested).

You will not get the response in time to help you decide whether or not to appeal (time to appeal is one of the things which definitely changed last August, and I think you will now only have 30 days from the date of the notice of a negative decision to make the appeal -- of course, it still remains possible this will not be a negative decision), but it should be in time to help you decide how much to invest in pursuing the appeal (you can always withdraw an appeal if the prospects are too dismal and the costs of proceeding are prohibitive), and it may be very helpful in setting up arguments to be made in the appeal itself -- although I do not know the procedure that well, and I do not know the extent to which the arguments must be made a part of the notice or filing of the appeal, or application for leave to appeal.


The case I would like to see made in the Federal Court is that when CIC submits negative evidence to the CJ, the applicant should be given notice of that negative evidence. I do not know how this would go, but to my view that is what a fair procedure requires. In almost any judicial or quasi-judicial process, a party is entitled to a reasonable opportunity to respond to the other side's evidence. I do not know if your case has underlying facts which would make this kind of case feasible or not, but it seems to be in the ballpark.




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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2015 at 10:52am
As always thanks very much for the details dpenabill. 

Let me start off by saying that as expected, the judge denied my application. I will present details of this towards the end of my post.

Though the two links about the cases you provided were in French, I was able to get the name of the attorneys from the bottom part. I tried to contact the office of Joseph Daoura but so far no luck yet. Left a couple of messages. I also contacted Green and Spiegel LLP - since they handled my paperwork for my transfer legalities in 2007 I am already familiar with them - and planning to do an initial consultation if I don't hear from the office of Daoura by tomorrow.

When I do my consultation I plan to bring up the point you highlighted which is why we were not given notice of items to be covered beforehand so that we could have been better prepared and how it impacts the process of a fair hearing.

We went into this hearing expecting a slightly hostile environment, but we expected the judge to be in procession of the knowledge relevant to her job. We can't bear the burden of her ignorance !!! Secondly we were shocked how openly she was trying to undermine our arguments with incomplete and confidential-till-the-hearing data. And lastly her refusal to look at additional documentation that we brought in (this is particularly significant when you read towards the end of this post). The entire hearing appeared more like "how-can-we-deny-your-application" than "how-can-we-ascertain-your-claims-of-residency". I think based on what you said, this is to be expected with a conservative govt. in place and these judges seem to be political appointees rather than a merit and qualification based ones.

Your observation of a possibility of we being liable for the crown's legal fees is very discouraging and extremely disappointing. Seems like CIC is using all their might to deny applications as much as possible. I have copies of pretty much everything I have submitted so far. I plan to present them when I do the legal consultation. I have already submitted a request to CBSA for all my entry records. Apparently its gonna take 30 days for a response. So I am going to evaluate my possibilities by consulting with the lawyer and then decide on how to proceed.

Now the more interesting aspects of the letter of denial.

1. She refers to my trips to US -12 undeclared re-entries to Canada is the term she used -which I already explained as day trips. She says there were nothing to prove that they were day trips. You can't prove unless the US CBP provides your entry records as well. This though I tried never granted by CBP. She also says that we didn't provide our US green cards and terms it as a serious oversight. She saw our green cards and made copies of them !!! Also this claim defies logic as the green cards are the only document that would let us back into US. So its quite evident that we had that with us and if we didn't show it to her then we must be first class lunatics.
2. She refers to my 4 self declared re-entries into Canada. Except the last one, the remaining three were actually my leaving Canada dates per my form. She says my explanations were insufficient.
3.  She misrepresented my oral statement - I think she didn't understand what I said despite saying it slow and very clear - that I didn't transfer officially to my job till Nov 2007 as my absence from Canada till Nov 2007. I was in and out of Canada during that time frame for various reasons as clearly explained in my residency calculator.
4.  She refers to lack of Canadian stamps on my re-entry but then keep referring to the one day trips as undeclared absences.
5.  She cites lack of OHIP and school records. I brought school records and when I put them on the table saying "I  have more documents to prove my residency" she said she has no time to go through them as they were too many documents and its way past her lunch time !!! I didnt bring OHIP records, but I had doctors notes and other medical reports. She refused to see them and then claim that I didnt present them.
6. She refers to my DHS request for entry records to US and states I didnt share them while I explained to her that my request was denied.
7. Though she promised, she never mentioned the problem I pointed out with their own records (the US entry stamp in my passport and entry records she brought up).

The document is a mix of mis-representation, fabricated facts and lies (about the US green card for one).  Based your observation I don't know how much this would hold up in court in a federal review but I would know when I do my consultation with the lawyer. I will keep you posted.



Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2015 at 4:44pm
Hopefully you find a lawyer who will help you sort things out as best they can be.

Regarding the observation that the hearing seemed "more like 'how-can-we-deny-your-application' than 'how-can-we-ascertain-your-claims-of-residency'," while the government and the CJ would likely disagree vehemently, this is nonetheless very much what I have long been suggesting is how it goes for applicants who are living and working abroad after applying. The hard part is the main issues are largely questions and determinations of fact based on the evidence, and it can be very difficult to get a Federal Court to, in effect, replace the CJ's determinations with the Court's own . . . the CJ's discretion is very broad in weighing the evidence and making inferences based on the evidence.

Please keep us informed. Will be interesting to find out what a lawyer says.

Note: there is a risk of having to pay the Minister's costs, but I should not have made it seem that just losing the appeal would necessarily result in that. Many lose and are not ordered to pay costs. It depends. A good lawyer should know much better what risks are involved and be able to advise you whether or not to pursue the appeal.

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2015 at 3:59am
By the way, the CJ hearing cases about residency never were about "how-can-we-ascertain-your-claims-of-residency."

And CIC's assessment was never about ascertaining whether or not the applicant met the residency requirement, except to the extent of verifying the applicant's declarations and submissions.

The burden of proof has long been on the applicant.

If CIC reviews an application and is satisfied residency was met, sure it approves the applicant (or in the past, made a referral to a CJ for a paper review pursuant to which the CJ's approval was largely perfunctory).

But if CIC perceives there is a reason-to-question-residency (which practically means RQ and a residency case), the burden of proof is on the applicant, and CIC's approach is largely to assess the evidence, including all that is submitted by the applicant in responding to RQ, to verify that the applicant has proven residency. If CIC discerns, from its perspective, that the applicant failed to prove residency, CIC looks no further, CIC does not look for additional evidence to ascertain whether the residency requirement was met. If CIC is not satisfied the applicant proved residency, then a referral is made to the CJ, whose job is to review the evidence, consider the gaps or problems in the proof identified by CIC, and give the applicant an opportunity to orally make his or her case, and to then decide whether or not the applicant proved residency.

There is no effort by CIC or a CJ to independently ascertain whether the residency requirement was met. It is up to the applicant to prove residency was met.

As a Denzel Washington character in a cop film once said: "It isn't what you know, it's what you can prove."

What some Federal Court justices have ruled is that applicants are charged with knowing what elements or qualifications must be shown and that the burden of proof is on them, so they do not need to be given any further notice as to why in particular what they have submitted fails to meet the burden of proof. The cases I previously cited at least raise a question about that. And, in most other judicial and quasi-judicial proceedings, individuals are generally entitled to an opportunity to respond to negative information considered against them, with reasonable notice of the negative information.

But, it could be tough finding a sympathetic Federal Court given your employment and life abroad.

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: Harrikon
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2015 at 7:17am
Ask your lawyer about the merits of getting the media involved. The government is wary of any negative attention, as the election is coming up. You never know, it could work


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2015 at 10:43am
I have no issues with "burden of proof is on the applicant" which is the reason why I brought the supporting evidence documentation properly categorized and ordered into the hearing. However there are a few concerns on the way the CJ approached this case.

1. She has inaccurate\incomplete data and when pointed that out in one instance with clear evidence - US stamp on my passport corresponding to her record of my entry - she quickly wanted to get out of there without acknowledging the mistake. That is clear evidence that her data is not 100% reliable.
2. She keep coming back to a clause that legally excludes me from declaring one-day trips and is asking for proof that requires a lot of prepwork - like contacting CBP for your I-94 records - without prior notice given.
3. "If CIC discerns, from its perspective" - the issue is that this perspective changes from CJ to CJ. From what I have read from this forum and many other forums is that the variations of this perspective is a large spectrum. There are those CJs who approved even with less number of the required minimum days to those who literally threw racial\ethinical biased statements at the applicant. 
4. "CJ, whose job is to review the evidence, consider the gaps or problems in the proof identified by CIC, and give the applicant an opportunity to orally make his or her case, and to then decide whether or not the applicant proved residency." - Again the issue is that if the CJ is approaching the case with a predetermined mindset, even the slightest issue - which otherwise would have been overlooked - would become the sticking points. I think thats what happened in my case. You know that when you exit Canada by road, you never encounter Canadian officials and hence there won't be any stamp on the PP. A CJ should know this. But should that be made a proof against the applicant or not depends on the perspective of the CJ. 

When I say CIC to ascertain the residency I didn't mean they have to go out and find out records to verify my story. What I meant is to look at the evidence I presented and then make an un-biased informed decision. If you are ignorant of how CBSA works, should that really be used against me? On paper yes. CJ can be ignorant and his\her limits of knowledge defines the scope of your evidence. But in reality should this be the case? I doubt it. Unfortunately this seems to be whats happening now and with politics and public opinion involved in the scale as we see now, I would assume things to continue as it is for a foreseeable future.

To underline this bias, I can point out the omissions, mistakes(intentional or not I dont know) and lies in her report. These are not opinions but clear cut facts.

Harrokon, I am going to ask the lawyer what are my chances of fighting this out in court. This whole thing will come down to how much its gonna cost me and what I would get out of it. I am willing to go to court if I have around 75% or more probability of winning. Else am gonna drop this whole thing and may be start from the scratch. With US GC in hand, entering Canada is not an issue and once things settle down a bit, I can slowly look for opportunities in Canada and then start the whole PR process again. Involving media is something I thought of, but really how much you can run after it is something am not sure about. Is that all gonna worth it? I don't know.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2015 at 3:47pm

Regarding definite errors made by the CJ:

If you appeal, a Certified Tribunal Record will be prepared and a copy will be filed with the Federal Court and a copy given to you (your lawyer). This CTR should contain everything that was considered by the CJ (although I am a little confused about references in some recent cases to the FPAT not being included in the CTR . . . I am not sure to what extent this means the actual written submissions to the CJ by CIC, the referral prepared using the FPAT, is not itself available to the applicant or perhaps even the Federal Court justice).

If based on that CTR and the CJ's decision, including stated reasons for the decision, the Federal Court justice identifies overt errors as to material matters, that can indeed make a huge difference in the outcome of the appeal. Obviously, your arguments (made by your lawyer) to the court will identify and document such errors made by the CJ, and assert their materiality (not all errors will support overruling a CJ's decision, only material errors -- this is one of the reasons why a lawyer is really needed, because most of us are not well enough in tune to what errors are material and what are not material to make persuasive arguments about this), and assert that those errors undermine the reasonableness of the CJ's decision.

I suggested before that you make a customized ATIP request, specifically requesting a copy of everything submitted to the CJ, as soon as possible. If you are not in Canada, you may need a lawyer just to do this. It is worth doing sooner rather than later.

To my thinking there are some significant fair procedure issues related to this, but this is so complicated it would be more of a distraction to delve into that here, now, and practically what issues are pursued in seeking judicial review for you is a matter of strategy and tactics to be decided by the lawyer who takes your case.



Clarifications; CIC's perspective:

Quote "If CIC discerns, from its perspective" - the issue is that this perspective changes from CJ to CJ.


CIC's perspective is separate from a CJ's perspective. While CJs are organizationally in the CIC hierarchy, they are independent, and supposed to be exercising independent judgment in deciding citizenship qualification issues.

CIC's perspective will be manifested, in the individual case, in the assessment done by a Citizenship Officer, who is the one who made the decision that CIC is not satisfied you met the requirements and prepared the referral (using the FPAT) for the CJ.

That referral should, my understanding, include everything you submitted, and the written referral containing CIC's assessment . . . which since last August (at the least) is essentially in the nature of a memorandum arguing CIC's position, which is practically, most likely, a memorandum opposing the grant of citizenship, a compilation of reasons why the applicant should not be approved.

So yes, indeed, the CJ has already read the case against you before the hearing begins, before you sit in front of the CJ.

(To my mind the new procedure further opens the issue about what notice should be given the applicant: since August last year the Citizenship Officer is actually making a decision, a decision to not grant citizenship, not merely preparing a referral, and to my view an applicant should be given timely notice of that decision and the reasons for it. To my mind, the new procedure makes a referral to a CJ essentially a type of administrative review. I have no idea if the lawyers who handle these cases have any thoughts along these lines or not.)



Nature of CJ's decision:

Probably already said as much as needs to be said, but perhaps it is worth noting that yes, of course, the CJ's decision should be objective, based on a fair and reasonable assessment of the evidence in the case, and the ultimate issues of fact determined based on the balance-of-probabilities standard.

But, as also noted, CIC has made its submissions to the CJ, which most likely amounted to a written argument opposed to approval, which the CJ will have read prior to the hearing. On top of that there is indeed (albeit this would probably be denied) a deep bias against applicants who are living outside Canada after applying.

Green Card status does not help either, but rather tends to raise concerns if not outright suspicions.



Some observations beyond the scope of your particular case:

Clarifications; day trips:

It is not clear to me whether you fully declared all day trips in the response to RQ. The RQ, unlike the residency calculation submitted with the application itself, does instruct the applicant to declare all trips including day trips.

I mention this more for the benefit of others looking at this topic for information which may be of help in their own cases, as a reminder to be sure to declare day trips in response to RQ.

Not only does this avoid having to explain apparently unreported day trips in a CJ hearing, but it makes a clear record identifying the trips as day trips (which may help in arguing on appeal, if it comes to that, that if CIC and the CJ have reason to dispute those were day trips, the applicant should be given notice of that reason).



Clarifications; presentation of Green Card:

This is another clarification more for the benefit of others. I am not clear whether you presented your Green Card in response to the RQ or had otherwise disclosed your U.S. status in the application. The procedural facts of your case are what they are now, so this observation is of no help to you, but this is something which warrants a reminder to others who have status to live or work in other countries.

While I do not recall the precise language of the item in the application, the application itself specifically calls for applicants to disclose status to live in another country. At the least, this calls for the disclosure of permanent resident status elsewhere. The applicant who has a U.S. Green Card has such status in the U.S., and thus applicants with a GC are required to disclose this in the application. If the applicant does not have a GC at the time of applying but obtains one while the application is being processed, that is a material change in the information in the application which the applicant is required to give notice of to CIC. RQ'd applicants with a U.S. GC are often (probably ordinarily) asked to present specific documentation; at the least, the RQ requests applicants to submit entry records for countries with such status (I forget what the precise language is for this in the RQ), which would include submitting U.S. entry records for anyone with a U.S. GC. Those have been difficult to obtain (mine took over a year), but the RQ'd applicant with a U.S. Green Card should request the U.S. records immediately (upon being issued RQ . . . I anticipated RQ and so requested my U.S. entry records months before I applied for citizenship; never did get RQ and did not get my U.S. entry record until many months after I became a Canadian citizen). If the records are not received in time to submit with the RQ response, an explanation should be included in the response (along the lines: U.S. entry records requesting, not received) and later, upon receiving the records, submit them to supplement the previously submitted response to RQ.


Note: having a U.S. Green Card alone has been something which has tended to elevate CIC's level of scrutiny, for obvious reasons (maintaining PR status in Canada is essentially inconsistent with U.S. requirements for maintaining GC status, so there is at least an implication the individual with both is not being entirely honest with U.S. authorities, or has not actually been in Canada as much as the PR has declared, either way suggesting compromised credibility).



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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2015 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:


If based on that CTR and the CJ's decision, including stated reasons for the decision, the Federal Court justice identifies overt errors as to material matters, that can indeed make a huge difference in the outcome of the appeal. 

This is going to be a huge issue in my case as mistakes made in the decision document can fall into this clause. I am sitting down with the attorney for a phone consultation as am travelling the next two weeks and can't be in Toronto. I might get a slot sometime first half of next week. I will post his response. I am preparing a background dossier for his reference so that he can go through it before talking to me. I am also preparing a set of questionnaire for him. Do you have anything in mind that I should specifically ask him? My questions are gonna be mostly around his background on cases similar to mine and how much of a chance I stand in this case. I will include your reference about sufficient notice given to the applicant before attending the hearing.

Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:

 CIC's perspective is separate from a CJ's perspective.

I understand that. But I don't think CIC would go against the CJ's decision or ever there was a history of CIC doing so. There could have been cases where CJ's would grant citizenship after examining the documents but when dealing with cases like mine, I think CJ is just a formality CIC wanted to conduct to complete the process. Also in my case though I can't put my finger on it, I strongly suspect that the CJ was biased on personal grounds. Now this is not coming from an emotional outburst, but after carefully going through the process over and over again, I strongly felt that she was not taking my responses in a good way. She seem to get upset whenever I point out mistakes in her arguments and there were couple of times when I brought up her past mistakes she was very uncomfortable. It could be nothing, but it could also be a contributing factor. 
So coming back to my point, I think CJ's perspective would matter the most since they have the authority to make a recommendation which CIC would rarely if not ever go against. In the end, you are really at the mercy of politically appointed person who probably have no clue about the complexities involved in immigration and border crossings. 
Using the FPAT to deny the applicant access to all documentation is like the secret evidence act you have in US (may be in Canada too) where you neither have the ability to question the witness nor counter the evidence presented simply because you have no access. This violates the basic principle of a fair trial\process. I think in my case if they use FPAT its gonna seal the fate even before we start.

Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:

 It is not clear to me whether you fully declared all day trips in the response to RQ. The RQ, unlike the residency calculation submitted with the application itself, does instruct the applicant to declare all trips including day trips. 

I wish I could post a file here so that I can show you the RQ notice. There were 14 items they asked for. They were passports, proof of employment, proof of domicile, school records, financial records, personal health records, travel records into Canada (with reference to obtaining them from CBSA but nothing about day trips), travel records to and from USA (again reference to CBP to obtain records but nothing about day trips), external documents which is travel records of movement from foreign countries, banking records, family presence, community involvement, list of absences since arrival starting with the most recent, others. There was no reference to day trips and since it was explicitly stated that day trips need not be included I didn't even think of it.

However, based on what happened to me, I would recommend that you should keep track of ALL your travels. Also try to get stamps or records or whatever official records to indicate you made that trip. 

As for US GC, YES. This is a BIG red flag. Though strictly not illegal - I obtained renewed Canada PR based on my past residency but next renewal will not happen since I dont have enough residency - it does raise questions about my intention to stay in Canada. However, my case was rather unique and there were specific employment situations and probably my greed towards a considerable package compared to what I got from Bay street, made it look like I have fraudulent intentions. Perhaps I should have resigned and took employment in Canada till my citizenship was processed. But its too late to think of that. 

CIC seem to consider any overseas stay AFTER applying for Citizenship as a 100% probable cause to deny the application regardless of meeting all the conditions outlined in their requirements for citizenship. I think no matter how well you prepare your package, CIC can go through with a fine tooth comb and come up with something. balance-of-probabilities is a very tricky term from what I have seen. They can use this clause to turn the situation any way they want. Road trips won't have passport stamps. Using the clause they can turn that against you despite the this being 100% factual and 100% real.

I will post more after my interview with the attorney. 


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2015 at 10:14pm
I am familiar with (and have a copy of) most versions of CIT 0171 (the Residence Questionnaire or "RQ") used between 2005 and at least late last year, and the older versions up to CIT 0171 (04-2009) did not specify to include day trips. More recent versions (for sure all 2012 and more recent versions) explicitly, in a parenthesis, say to include all day trips and trips to the U.S.

In any event, if you just state the form number, which would be CIT 0171 (mm-year) (identifying month and year for that version, and some include an "E" for the English version and some "B" which is a form in both French and English . . . prior to 2011 the "B" version was most common, which is one of the versions that did not specify including "day trips" ), I probably have a copy of the RQ form like the one you filled out, except for any additional requests (particularly in older RQ cases the cover letter often included specific document requests which were specific to the individual case; I have seen copies of these asking for things like a copy of the applicant's U.S. drivers license for example).

Regarding decision-making by CJ and CIC: they really are largely independent. Many of the cases appealed in the past were appealed by CIC, cases in which the CJ granted approval and CIC appealed.

Under the current system, since August, a Citizenship Officer decides whether to grant citizenship. If the Citizenship Officer determines there is a residency issue, and does not grant citizenship, the case goes to a CJ. If the CJ denies approval, the applicant can seek judicial review (appeal). If the CJ grants approval, CIC has a similar amount of time in which to decide whether to go ahead and grant citizenship or appeal. A couple of the most recent cases published by the Federal Court were indeed cases in which the CJ granted approval and CIC appealed (one dismissed, one granted).

Regarding the GC: yes, this has been a red flag for a long time, going back years prior to the OB 407 changes in RQ. Moreover, going forward (for those who apply after the SCCA intent to continue to reside in Canada provision comes into force), having status to live permanently in another country will loom as an even larger, more direct issue.

For now, going abroad after applying is indeed problematic. When the SCCA intent to continue to reside provision comes into force, for those with applications governed by it, living abroad after applying may be a stand alone specific ground to deny citizenship (logically impossible to have an intent to continue residing in Canada if the individual is currently not living in Canada). This is definitely a clue about how important this issue is for the current government.    



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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2015 at 10:34pm
Mine says CIT 0011 (23-09-2004) E GCMS.

I was not aware of CJ approving CIC appealing. Wonder what that would do the credibility of CJ.

As for the intent of the CIC to put a lot of focus on stay in foreign countries, I am seriously hoping that CIC would adopt a more balanced approach rather than stereotyping. I know of many who falsified their application - become PR, do landing, drive across to US and then fly off from there and after three years get their application in and become citizens - and then there are those who chose to stay for three years enduring the tough times and then moved off to different countries but yet got their citizenship. Large majority of them in fact came back after working on pretty lucrative projects and making enough money to have a good life in Canada. Most of them now run business establishments in and around GTA and BC. CIC should be focusing their efforts on catching the former and let go of the latter.  I wonder if ever Justin Trudeau come to power, would that make a difference.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2015 at 8:24pm

A very recent http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/108802/index.do" rel="nofollow - Federal Court decision is an example of an appeal by CIC (technically by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration).

It is also a good discussion of what the "reasonable" standard of review is, and what "balance of probabilities" means in the context of a citizenship residency case.

It is also a case involving frequent travel between the U.S. and Canada without certainty as to all the dates, and an applicant whose employment was located in the U.S. during the entire period of time relevant to the residency calculation.

Justice Mosley dismissed the Minister's appeal, in effect upholding the approval of citizenship given by the CJ in that case.

One thing you might take note of is the extent to which Justice Mosley acknowledges many errors made by the CJ in rendering the decision, but Justice Mosley upheld the CJ's decision as reasonable despite those numerous errors. That worked to the benefit of the person applying for citizenship in that case, because the CJ ruled in her favour, the CJ's approval of citizenship being upheld as reasonable despite the errors in the CJ's decision.

Unfortunately this could work against you, since the CJ's decision went against you; that is, the Federal Court could recognize that the CJ made many errors in rendering a decision in your case, but despite that the decision itself was reasonable and should be upheld (meaning you lose).




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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2015 at 2:58am
The latest on this is that I have decided to go for a judicial review. Collecting documentation and preparing notes. Lets see how this goes. 


Posted By: hfxresident
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2015 at 3:34pm
Citizenship is a privilege and not a right.

With time, people are starting to forget that. And there are some who wish to get citizenship as an accessory to their life for a better travel access to some countries without visas which the Federal Govt is now aware of and they are trying hard to track those people down and limit others from doing the same. Perhaps, this is why the judge is being tough? But I should add that having a US citizenship will be questioned pretty extensively. It was easy back in the day and but now-a-days, these type of red flags are being questioned.

Basic idea of a citizenship is: People, families who move to Canada to have a safe and secured life for themselves and their children. Or contribute to work force, if you are a rocket scientist. They come here, work, live, send kids to school, grow up, grow old, etc. But when you have a US citizenship already, a country that can provide you exactly the same, may be even better, benefits, privileges, secured life and what not. Why Canada?

Firstly, what does not make sense to these judges are insignificant things like, why are you opting to pay taxes in two different countries?? Albeit, you may manage to pay nothing here in Canada, you still have to file taxes as a non-resident Canadian for you and everyone in your family and have to go through extra work for it. Why?

In what instance would you require two citizenship? I mean, there are multiple ways for Canadians to live in the US and vice-a-versa. So, this is a question that will be tough to make a citizenship judge explain no matter how much mumbo jumbo we discuss, the fact is a fact, which dpenabill already stated, which is, 'Why go for a Canadian Citizenship when you already have the US citizenship??'

Regarding your entry/exit records: Did you not get a CBSA report and submit that? The CBSA report has all the record of your entry with date, time, officer, type of immigrant, etc. And I believe, as per my research, starting last year US & Canada amalgamated their customs/immigration system and therefore, they can see everything on both sides. Did you not get documents USCBP? There is a site that will allow you to see all your I-94 records, i don't know what site but there is one. Secondly, why wouldn't you declare your one day trips?? As per the residency calculator, it asks you to not to bother to enter because the calculator shows it as a "0". But does the questionnaire ask you to that it is mandatory that you do not enter? No. So, what I did for my wife, is enter even those couple of hour mall trips to Buffalo in the questionnaire. You have to understand that the questionnaire has a "reason" for your travel. That would have reduced a lot of harassment you received as these judges do not have time to really sit down, be in your shoes and picture those travel. Basically, I entered all dates, be that for couple of hrs with the "reason" and the calculator will put that as a "0" (Zero) and would not be counted towards your days absent. Great! Therefore, it sounds to me that you were actually not well prepared for this esp considering you have a unique situation, even after the RQ, unless you probably stated that in your explanations but I didn't notice. But if you didn't, then your application is technically incomplete, esp your travel dates, which is a BIG part of your citizenship process, regardless you holding a good job, having a property and such.

Bottom line: Do not leave any room for error or questioning in your case. Considering your situation, you would be questioned even if you did not leave any room for questioning but it sounds like you did and they are now at the point of not questioning but more of an interrogation and harassment.

My wife's situation:

2009:
Landed 2009.
3 month travel outside North America coupled with multiples trips to the US, every other long weekend.

2010:
Multiple trips to the US, every other long weekend.

2011:
4 month trip outside North America coupled with multiples trips to the US, every other long weekend.

2012:
2 month trip outside North America coupled with multiples trips to the US, every other long weekend.

2013:
5 month trip outside North America coupled with multiple trips to the US, every other long weekend.

2014:
Applied for citizenship

2014 Oct: Test after which the officer told my wife that there is a discrepancy in dates so Oath has been delayed but no RQ.

2015 Jan: Reached out to my wife asking her to drop by CIC office. She did and it was actually my error. I confused Oct (10) with January (01) so that was the mistake, but she understood, updated file and.....

2015 Feb: Oath

In my wife's situation, I declared ALL & EVERY trip, even those one day mall trips.

I am not blaming anyone, finding fault, being critical, but just discussing and explaining what I personally did for my wife so that perhaps you can do the same and be successful. I wish you all the best, buddy.

-------------
HFX: Sent Apr2010 | Letter Oct2010 | Process Feb2011 | Transfer Mar2011 | Test Sep2011 | Oath Dec2011

Comments are for discussion purposes only. Not intended to be relied upon.


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2015 at 8:17pm
First of all, I am not sure about Citizenship being a right Vs. privilege arguments, but my point is that the conditions set by CIC for Citizenship were met and then some more. CIC don't read my mind to decide I don't intend to live in Canada or not and honestly if they haven't specified in paper then it has no legal standing.

Second, I am not a US citizen yet. If I choose to, I can become one next year. There is a little bit of background to my story here which could easily answer your questions. There were compelling reasons for me to move back to US and hadn't CIC dragged it so long, I would have been back in Canada in about 18 to 24 months time from my move back to US. If my intention was to obtain a visa free travel passport or other associated privileges, then going for US citizenship would be a much better option. But I want to be closer to my folks in GTA and thats where I plan to settle down in the long run. I explained the whole story multiple times to the CJ and CIC. I even wrote to them requesting them to expedite my processing so that I can process my job transfer. Nothing worked. All these time, I been paying taxes in Canada too as I still kept my home there in the hopes of coming back. I sold it only in 2013 after almost giving up hopes of something ever happening to my application. If you own a home, then you have to pay taxes. My wife was still working part time from Canada and we have our contracting firm running from Toronto. We had all these connections and I explained everything to the CJ, yet she chose to ignore them all. I never wanted two citizenship. All I wanted was to get my Canadian one. But multiple circumstantial factors forced me into this situation. If I wanted I could have obtained US citizenship long ago instead of trying to obtain PR in Canada and then settle down.

I have applied to CBSA twice before appearing for the interview and never got a response. I tried calling to no avail. Even recently my application was processed incorrectly and now am chasing ghosts from CBSA to get it properly done. I did explain this in my notes to the CJ and did provided copies of letters as proof. As for CBP, I wrote, I called and nothing ever got a response. Their current I-94 system goes back only 5 years and that was not available when I submitted my application. That site is https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/request.html
But like I said, it goes back only 5 years. Its not gonna help me. I have already requested in an email for records going back to 2006. Will wait and see what happens.

As for one day trips neither the residency calculator nor the RQ questionnaire stated that I should specify one day trips. As some of you might have thought, my RQ didn't have something stating "declare ALL travel records". I gave the RQ reference # in my earlier response to dpenabill. The judge didnt have to sit in my shoes to see the picture. It was quite clearly explained to her. She doesn't even know the land crossing procedure and was confusing it with the air travel procedure !!! Its true that I was not prepared for a judge whose intention was solely to somehow discredit my application rather than factually access my situation. As dpenabill stated, with the recent stand on immigration by the conservative govt. and considering the fact that CJs are political appointees, you are likely to face CJs who are 100% skeptical and would be approaching your case with a preconceived notion that you are lying. I was not prepared for that and I wish I had seen this coming. As for the number of days absent, its not how you made the trips or how long you were absent, its how the entry and exit dates mismatched based on passport stamps and how I declared those dates. For example, I declared a trip outside Canada and she has the entry back into Canada on records, but don't have the passport stamp for the exit date as I crossed over to US using a valid I-94. What she would do is, she would count my exit date from one day after my last entry date into Canada or take the latest stamp on my passport before the entry date on the CBSA records. This is why I said she was cherry picking and manipulating the dates. Even there, she erred twice and when pointed out, she wouldn't acknowledge them.

What I realized is that if the CJ want to discredit your application with prejudice, he\she can do it unless you have closed EVERY potential loop hole. Example is a situation where something is legally not possible, yet it can be used as an excuse to undermine your case. When you enter Canada by land, your passport is not stamped, but then it can be used as an omission to discount your claims of entering into Canada. Another example is when you exit from Canada by land to US, if you have a valid I-94, there won't be any stamp on your passport. But it can be used as an excuse to deny your claims of exiting Canada on that specific date. So its not a matter of how much error-proofing you do to your application, but what is the mindset of the CJ at that time, that would determine how your case go. Ofcourse, am not discounting your efforts to foolproof your application, but don't bet on it 100%. If you are looking for lessons from my case, then I would say, get EVERY record from every agency you have to deal with. Even if its outside of Canada. Make sure that every thing is properly recorded - including date, time, place and get the matched to records you obtain from all these agencies. That is the only way you can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that you did you claim you did. But even then, dont think that the CJ would believe you.

In your case it the CJ believed that it was a genuine mistake. In my case the CJ wouldn't even admit her mistake let alone forgiving my mistake !!! Like I said, am gonna give it one last shot and if it doesnt work out, then I will sit down and re-evaluate my options. May be a fresh start or may be drop everything and forget Canada. Have to wait and see.


Posted By: supercarp
Date Posted: 23 May 2015 at 5:28am
Originally posted by sarin_j sarin_j wrote:

First of all, I am not sure about Citizenship being a right Vs. privilege arguments, but my point is that the conditions set by CIC for Citizenship were met and then some more. CIC don't read my mind to decide I don't intend to live in Canada or not and honestly if they haven't specified in paper then it has no legal standing.

....

I have applied to CBSA twice before appearing for the interview and never got a response. I tried calling to no avail. Even recently my application was processed incorrectly and now am chasing ghosts from CBSA to get it properly done. I did explain this in my notes to the CJ and did provided copies of letters as proof. As for CBP, I wrote, I called and nothing ever got a response. Their current I-94 system goes back only 5 years and that was not available when I submitted my application. That site is https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/request.html
But like I said, it goes back only 5 years. Its not gonna help me. I have already requested in an email for records going back to 2006. Will wait and see what happens.



why and how can CBSA not send you the in-and-out info, twice? I also ordered it twice last year and both of them were received correctly in the mail after 1-2 months of the request. are you sure you have asked for it through ATIP?


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2015 at 12:07am
Here is an update on my application. After I posted my experience here, I was contacted by an attorney from Edmonton, Alberta who offered his service to take up my fight against CIC. His rates were affordable and I decided to work with him. The firm's name was Knisely Nagase Anderson LLP and his name was Martin Stoyanov. He immediately started moving the paperwork as we didnt have many days for the 30 day deadline. He explained the whole process to me and was very prompt in responding to my questions. He filed my documents and requested from CIC all the paperwork associated with my application. At about the same time I also applied for my travel records from DHS for all the crossings I made between Canada and US. Finally when the records obtained from CIC were reviewed, it substantiated EVERY points I made against the judge's decision in my earlier post. The attorney himself was shocked to see that the judge lied through her teeth especially around not submitting my US GC !!! He was very confident on my case and few weeks later, I got the news from him that the CIC attorney has asked us to drop the case and in return they would send my application for re-evaluation. We were asked to sign the Notice of Discontinuance if we agree to this deal. I asked about the timelines involved because if this whole thing was going to take another 2 to 3 years, its rather useless to me. He got the response from the CIC attorney that matters like this are concluded rather quickly. So we agreed and signed the Notice of Discontinuance effectively reversing the denial and ending our case. We were very happy with the outcome and the way the attorney handled our case. Unfortunately this happiness was short lived and I now suspect we have traded the rock for a hard place. At this point, we have no idea what the status of our application is. When I contacted the CIC through their helpline, they could see that our application has been sent back for re-evaluation but they can't say anything else. They recommended us to contact our attorney. My repeated pleas\requests to the attorney so far yielded zero responses. And today when I checked my status online, the system can't even find my details based on client# or file ID. I assume this is because may be they closed my original application and started a new one. But so far no communication from CIC about any of this. Is there anyone who can shed some light on my current situation?


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2015 at 12:21am


The outcome you describe is, as much as I can discern, not unusual. The consensual withdrawal of an appeal pursuant to this or that condition or agreement is, I think, quite common.

I am no expert, not a Canadian lawyer, and cannot begin to second-guess the deal the lawyer made on your behalf.

Not sure why your attorney is not responding. Best I can offer is to continue to make an effort to communicate with the lawyer's office.

I am not clear what "re-evaluation" means in your case. But that is probably the best outcome you could have obtained in the Federal Court anyway. However, that is very much dependent on there being, in fact, a re-evaluation of the case.

I am guessing it is a bit too early to jump to conclusions about the status of things. That noted, your anxiety is natural and I fully concur in your continued effort to find out the status of your case. If the CIC help line confirms that the case has been put into a track for re-evaluation, that is where it should be and that, again, is all a Federal Court could have ordered CIC to do (that is, that is as good as winning the appeal). But where it goes from here and why eCas is not showing an active case I cannot guess.

Stay after it and again please let us know how this goes.

And good luck.


Originally posted by sarin_j sarin_j wrote:

Here is an update on my application. After I posted my experience here, I was contacted by an attorney from Edmonton, Alberta who offered his service to take up my fight against CIC. His rates were affordable and I decided to work with him. The firm's name was Knisely Nagase Anderson LLP and his name was Martin Stoyanov. He immediately started moving the paperwork as we didnt have many days for the 30 day deadline. He explained the whole process to me and was very prompt in responding to my questions. He filed my documents and requested from CIC all the paperwork associated with my application. At about the same time I also applied for my travel records from DHS for all the crossings I made between Canada and US. Finally when the records obtained from CIC were reviewed, it substantiated EVERY points I made against the judge's decision in my earlier post. The attorney himself was shocked to see that the judge lied through her teeth especially around not submitting my US GC !!! He was very confident on my case and few weeks later, I got the news from him that the CIC attorney has asked us to drop the case and in return they would send my application for re-evaluation. We were asked to sign the Notice of Discontinuance if we agree to this deal. I asked about the timelines involved because if this whole thing was going to take another 2 to 3 years, its rather useless to me. He got the response from the CIC attorney that matters like this are concluded rather quickly. So we agreed and signed the Notice of Discontinuance effectively reversing the denial and ending our case. We were very happy with the outcome and the way the attorney handled our case. Unfortunately this happiness was short lived and I now suspect we have traded the rock for a hard place. At this point, we have no idea what the status of our application is. When I contacted the CIC through their helpline, they could see that our application has been sent back for re-evaluation but they can't say anything else. They recommended us to contact our attorney. My repeated pleas\requests to the attorney so far yielded zero responses. And today when I checked my status online, the system can't even find my details based on client# or file ID. I assume this is because may be they closed my original application and started a new one. But so far no communication from CIC about any of this. Is there anyone who can shed some light on my current situation?




-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2015 at 9:32pm
Thank you dpenabill for the response. I will make another attempt to contact the attorney. My gut feeling is that he is intentionally avoiding me because I have left numerous voice mails, messages at the front desk and emails. If zero response, then that could be that he has no interest whatsoever in establishing contact with me. 

About the re-evaluation phrase I used, let me type up exactly what the letter states. May be that would make more sense.

Kindly be advised that I have received instructions to consent to this application for leave and
judicial review of the March 25, 2015 decision denying your client's application for grant of
Canadian Citizenship.
The terms of our consent are, on a without costs basis, upon receipt of a filed Notice of
Discontinuance, the matter will be sent back to a new decision maker at CIC for re-determination.

I trust this to be satisfactory, and will look forward to receiving your filed discontinuance in due
course.

Yours truly,

MARIA GREEN
Counsel
Prairie Region
Department of Justice Canada

cc: Federal Court - Edmonton
Via Facsimile:(780) 495-4681

I am trying hard to remember the exact term used by the lawyer, but am pretty sure it was re-evaluation. I plan to contact the helpline tomorrow to find out my status and why its not showing up online. So far no communication has been sent to my home in Canada. I hope this whole thing has gone into a blackhole of some sort. What is more concerning is the way the CIC changing their rules and in a rush to close out pending cases they might just throw out my application.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2015 at 5:17pm

In addition to being NO expert, I have no exposure to these sorts of transactions in Canada.

Beyond that, in general it appears to be genuine, as in it appears to be what it purports to be. And thus it does indeed appear that this is headed back to CIC (obviously, though, as of this communication, your lawyer still needed to prepare and submit the Notice of Discontinuance).

Particularly if this was received somewhat recently, I would not be much worried but would expect things to take some time. Not a whole lot of time perhaps, but weeks or months.

Your case will probably go back to a CIC Citizenship Officer for a re-evaluation. But that is not entirely clear. It could be referred to another CJ hearing with a different Citizenship Judge without first being re-assessed by a CIC Citizenship Officer. I do not know how CIC is handling these matters these days.

I do not recall the status of your evidence, but you now have an opportunity to gather any additional evidence you might not have had at the earlier hearing. You should have border entry records from the U.S. in addition to the CBSA Travel History, at the least.

While the transition in government taking place should not directly affect the processing of applications much, things will probably move a bit more slowly for awhile as some staff may be diverted to engage in transitional work.

Caution: You might be surprised by a sudden notice to appear for the oath. Remember, you cannot miss that scheduled event. If you miss that, the fact of being abroad is NOT an acceptable excuse or reason, and this could result in the summary termination of the application.



Originally posted by sarin_j sarin_j wrote:

Thank you dpenabill for the response. I will make another attempt to contact the attorney. My gut feeling is that he is intentionally avoiding me because I have left numerous voice mails, messages at the front desk and emails. If zero response, then that could be that he has no interest whatsoever in establishing contact with me.

About the re-evaluation phrase I used, let me type up exactly what the letter states. May be that would make more sense.

<font color="#ff0066">Kindly be advised that I have received instructions to consent to this application for leave and judicial review of the March 25, 2015 decision denying your client's application for grant of
Canadian Citizenship.
The terms of our consent are, on a without costs basis, upon receipt of a filed Notice of
Discontinuance, the matter will be sent back to a new decision maker at CIC for re-determination.

I trust this to be satisfactory, and will look forward to receiving your filed discontinuance in due course.

Yours truly,
MARIA GREEN
Counsel
Prairie Region
Department of Justice Canada

cc: Federal Court - Edmonton
Via Facsimile:(780) 495-4681</font]


I am trying hard to remember the exact term used by the lawyer, but am pretty sure it was re-evaluation. I plan to contact the helpline tomorrow to find out my status and why its not showing up online. So far no communication has been sent to my home in Canada. I hope this whole thing has gone into a blackhole of some sort. What is more concerning is the way the CIC changing their rules and in a rush to close out pending cases they might just throw out my application.




-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2015 at 1:51am
Here is an update on my case. After patiently waiting for weeks to hear from CIC about the next steps, I decided to check my status again hoping that somehow they might have restored my details based on re-determination process. But again there was nothing. So I contacted the call center and the agent after much searching came back and said that my file has been closed !!! And the only option available to me was to re-apply !!! I almost fell out of my chair hearing that. After so much effort, so much pain and so MUCH money spent, all I have left with is a closed case and re-apply??? It took two days to really digest this info and I felt like I been pushed into a bottomless pit with no hope of recovery. As a desperate measure I went through the letter sent to me by the justice department informing me about their decision, I noticed that there was a phone number listed and decided to give it a try. It was the number for the Justice Department in Edmonton and the voice at the other end sounded surprisingly friendly and helpful. I explained my situation to her and requested for her help. She asked for my last name and I gave it to her and also told her that the letter was signed was Maria Green. I was surprised again to realize that it was her that I was speaking to and she do remember my case !!! When I told her about CIC closing the file, she was surprised and shocked and said, this is really strange because we asked them to send your file for re-determination. She promised to look into it and by evening the same day I received communication from her stating that she has sent a note to CIC asking for explanation. Within a week she asked me to send a signed consent stating that I will be representing myself since the attorney was not returning calls. Later she explained that apparently the process we followed was wrong. In order to overturn the judge's decision we actually should have proceeded with a consent order and not by a discontinuance. She has drafted an order for us to sign so that our application can go back to another citizenship judge for re-determination. I was also happy to see the following statement in the statement of facts section.

The respondent acknowledges that there was a breach of procedural fairness committed by the Citizenship Judge at the Applicant's hearing. 

The respondent here is CIC.

This is the order sought by the justice dept.

The respondent seeks an order, on consent, granting this motion as follows:

a) that the previously filed notice of discontinuance be deemed to be withdrawn
b) that the applicant's application for judicial review be allowed without costs to either party
c) that the March 25 2015 decision of the citizenship judge refusing the applicant's citizenship application, as communicated to the applicant by letter dated March zs zafi be referred for re-determination in accordance with the crtzenship Act, R.s.c. 1985, c. c-29, as am. and the strengthening canadian Citizenship Acf, S.C. 2014, c.22.

So am hoping that finally something positive would come out of this ordeal. Hopefully I would get a judge who is un-biased and willing to hear my side of the story too. Only thing I want to figure out is should I take an attorney with me this time if I have to go for another hearing.


Posted By: Harrikon
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2015 at 3:01pm
Wow, finally something! I would definitely hire a lawyer. Why take a chance?

-------------
Applied: June 2012
Processing: December 2012
RQ and Test: December 2013
(Reason for RQ: unknown)
Oath: May 2015


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2015 at 3:41am
sarin_j:


It appears your lawyer did not follow through. Not good. Though as it appears to be turning out OK (at least to the extent that your application will be re-determined), no serious damage done.

I think I have previously indicated (without revisiting earlier posts) that the case should now go to a Citizenship Officer who can decide to grant citizenship or to refer the application to another Citizenship Judge. How the latter works in practice I do not know, since this is a relatively new process (technically in place since August 2014, but in practice not employed enough for results to be reported in the forums or in any Federal Court decisions).

The procedural confusion and your lawyer's lack of engagement is disconcerting (unless you have not paid the lawyer). But again it appears this has been resolved.

While it is rare to see personal reports of the consent procedure, at the least your report illuminates it better (not sure who follows this stuff so closely beyond you, whose application it is, and me, with my obsession for citizenship application process and law).

In the meantime, the newly elected Liberals have promised to remove the "intent to reside" in Canada requirement from the new law. This does not directly affect you, but it may signal a general shift in how CIC (actually it is called Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship now) approaches cases involving applicants with extended absences after applying or who otherwise continue to have significant residential or employment ties abroad. That is, you can hope the responsible citizenship officer takes a more flexible if not lenient approach to assessing the facts in your case, whereas under the Conservative leadership there was a clear push to approach these cases with an almost draconian skepticism.

Obviously, given the stumbling you have already encountered, you need to keep abreast of what is happening and make sure the process follows what is indicated.

While, again, I am not sure anyone else is following these procedures in the detail I do, your reports do help enhance my understanding of the process. Good to know, for example, that the "discontinuance" was not the appropriate procedure, but that a specific consent to grant of review is essentially necessary for the application to be returned to CIC for re-determination.

Good luck and please do continue to keep the forum informed.




-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2015 at 12:02am
dpenabill,

Looks like you are right about the lawyer. He didn't follow through properly and had I not contacted the Justice department, my case would have simply closed out without ever getting anywhere. This is despite the fact that I did pay him in full and though he offered at one point to reimburse the money I spent in overnighting some documents to him, I decided to handle the cost myself. 

There have been couple of updates on my situation. The first one is that on Dec 7th, I received a note from the CIC office in scarborough asking me to submit some additional evidence. In my rejection letter, the judge made a reference to my attempt to obtain my travel records from the DHS. In 2011, the process to obtain such details was through submitting form G-639 to the records dept. and it was done either via fax or mail. There was no electronic system at that time. So in my RQ records, I did submit the copy of the filled form that I submitted, but since it went through regular mail there was no receipt or anything to indicate it actually was sent by me or received by DHS. I never got a response from DHS and I did indicate that which the judge quoted and said as one of the reasons to reject my case. This new note from CIC was asking me to furnish proof that I did submit this request and wanted any response if I ever got one. Seemed to me like they were playing new tricks to drag this along further. However the timing of this letter seemed a little off to me because I provided the justice department with my signed documents only in Dec 1st. So I immediately contacted the justice department who were equally surprised and promised me that they would look into it immediately. Same day evening I received an email to that effect. Within two days time, I got another email from the justice dept. stating that it was premature and CIC was jumping their guns. They told me to ignore this communication and wait for further updated instructions from CIC. They also said that my case file has been updated to reflect this new details.

The second update is that I received today another notice for hearing before judge. Scheduled for 12th Jan 2016. So now am actively prepping for that interview. I am thinking of taking a lawyer with me. I would like to know what advantage this lawyer can provide compared to me and my wife facing the judge alone? What can they do which we can't? Can the interject if the judge start taking a track that can be deemed biased or discriminatory? It happened with the first judge. Please provide some insights.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2015 at 1:42am

Upfront: I am probably biased. My bias is that being represented by a qualified, experienced lawyer, is almost always an advantage in most adjudicatory or quasi-adjudicatory situations.

There are caveats to this.

Since I have minimal experience with Canadian lawyers perhaps that bias is not well-founded regarding the quality of legal representation in Canada. I suspect the criticisms about Canadian immigration lawyers, such as those typically seen in the forums, are not well-founded. But I do not really know. What little exposure I have had here has indeed been, at best, mixed. But this is a relatively small city a long way from any major city, and even in the States one would often see a rather different brand of jurisprudence outside metropolitan areas, so I do not extrapolate any generalizations about Canadian law based on what I have seen here. But I do not really know what to expect from Canadian lawyers.

Another caveat is that of course not all lawyers are created equal. And sometimes a bad lawyer can indeed be worse than having no lawyer at all. To find a good lawyer at this late date, over the holidays, on such short notice, that might not be practical if even possible.

A third caveat is that a lawyer cannot change the core facts or merits of a case. It is not as if hiring a lawyer guarantees a particular outcome.

A lawyer's first level of service is to ensure his or her client's rights are protected -- most people expect authorities to honor and respect and not violate their rights, that is that those whose rights are abused probably deserve it or at least that is what happens to someone else . . . until it happens to them. Thus, in the context of a citizenship application hearing, for example, a lawyer's foremost role is to assure the applicant has an opportunity to present his or her side of the case, that the Citizenship Judge does not engage in discriminatory or abusive inquiries, and in particular that the applicant have an opportunity to address the issues. My impression is that just having a lawyer present influences CJs to be more discreet and judicious in how they conduct the hearing.

Another role a lawyer has in this context has to do with issue-identification and assisting the applicant to prepare and submit information and evidence regarding the issues that really matter.

My bias is that lawyers can do both these things for clients well beyond what the client can do for himself or herself. (Even if the client is a lawyer!)

Issue-identification, in particular, is a hugely important skill. Perhaps many lawyers are only mediocre relative to this skill. But non-lawyers, even the most well-informed and intelligent ones, tend to either be quite lacking in this or are rather bad at it, tending to identify, and harp on even, the wrong issues, not only matters of little or no importance but oft times things which actually become a distraction if not an outright detraction.

The thing about quasi-adjudicatory proceedings is that ordinarily they are less formal and deliberately structured to facilitate a more or less open interaction aimed at accomplishing an equitable outcome, based more on what is deserved and less on technical requirements or formalities. This typically tends to weigh favourably for applicants. And it makes the process far more accessible to non-lawyers, to those who go into the proceeding without a lawyer. Historically most CJ hearings tended to be like this, I think, more an interview than a hearing (and many references to these hearings indeed have referred to them as an "interview"). Historically many if not most applicants did not need a lawyer, but needed to put their best face on and show the CJ they are honest, sincere, qualified applicants who deserve citizenship. A lawyer's presence, introducing a degree of formality to the proceedings, might disrupt this sort of proceeding.

But these days CJ hearings are more adversarial, CIC's advocacy present in the form of the referral prepared using the File Preparation and Analysis Template, and cases which go to a CJ these days are almost always cases which CIC is indeed presenting, in the referral, an advocate's argument as to why citizenship should be denied.

So these days, my sense is that the particular expertise of lawyers who do litigation (most do not), and who have experience in citizenship application cases, should be quite helpful, the lawyer in a position to offer important services.

There are many other more subtle elements the good lawyer brings to the table. Experience in dealing with decision-makers is a big one. Knowing when to push and when not to push, how hard to push, when to concede, what to concede, what to absolutely not concede, all play into how lawyers deal with decision-makers (from juries to judges, to administrative decision-makers in quasi-judicial roles like a Citizenship Judge). And of course, again, lawyers are not all equal in such skills, but they are typically better at this than non-lawyers.

Among other significant aspects, as well, is that if things are not going well in the hearing, if there is clear disagreement and an unfavourable inclination tipping the CJ toward a negative decision, is that an experienced lawyer has better odds of patching up the differences, or can draw the CJ's ire to himself or herself in a way that leaves open a way for the CJ to think more favourably of the applicant . . . even to the point where the lawyer can be the one who is disagreeing in a manner that makes a strong point with making it look like the client, the applicant, is disagreeing with the CJ, so the applicant looks more qualified or at least less guilty . . . and when things are leaning toward real ugly, a lawyer will typically do a better job making sure the record reflects important elements which will help win an appeal. And then, ultimately, the lawyer is a more or less objective observer of the hearing and can illuminate, if necessary, whether there was bias, discrimination, or an abuse of discretion involved.


Time is short, however, and since you have been through this once, you are far more informed about how these go and should have an idea about how to be better prepared to advocate your case this time.

And ultimately, whether to pay the cost of a lawyer, and do that extra work (to find a good lawyer, and then to inform the lawyer well enough he or she can competently handle the case), is worth it, that is a very individual, personal judgment call. Who is available makes a difference. Financial resources make a difference.

Will be interested to see how this goes, so please keep the forum informed.




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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2015 at 1:52am
Mangled some of the language above. Too complicated to edit.

Particularly as to the capacity of a lawyer to draw negativity toward himself or herself . . . it is kind of like bad cop / good cop, the lawyer trying to keep the CJ thinking of the applicant as the good guy even though the lawyer is arguing against the CJ. This skill is akin to walking a tightrope in swirling, unpredictable winds. It is not easy to argue with someone and at the same time push them to be more favourable.



-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2015 at 4:57pm
Looks like am getting nowhere in my search for an attorney to accompany me to the hearing. Those I call are either not into dealing with hearing or citing too short notice to handle this. Am gonna keep trying.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2016 at 3:21pm

Consider taking a close family member, or finding a consultant, someone who can at least accompany you and potentially be a reporter of what happens in the course of the hearing. They can remain entirely silent, and be there as much for moral support as anything. My theory (my guess) is that the presence of an additional person, particularly an independent person (like a consultant), is likely to temper the range within which a CJ might conduct the hearing. I would avoid a consultant who would engage in overt advocacy in the hearing (I have seen some cases in which it appears a consultant is over-the-top and does more damage than good), but rather focus on having someone there to more or less accompany you rather than as an advocate for you. Someone who would, in effect, be a witness of the hearing. (Again, a reason to do this is as much about influencing the way the CJ approaches the hearing.)

Avoid being confrontational in the hearing. (I noted in a previous post the idea of a lawyer being someone who can fill a sort-of bad cop role, engaging in more aggressive advocacy than the applicant would want to do . . . personally I would NOT trust a consultant to be competent in doing this . . . this is a highly sophisticated skill and even many lawyers are not very good at it. . . . alienating, let alone making the CJ angry, will most likely hurt one's case.)




Originally posted by sarin_j sarin_j wrote:

Looks like am getting nowhere in my search for an attorney to accompany me to the hearing. Those I call are either not into dealing with hearing or citing too short notice to handle this. Am gonna keep trying.


Not a surprise. As I posted more than two weeks ago now:

"To find a good lawyer at this late date, over the holidays, on such short notice, that might not be practical if even possible."

And the difference between a good lawyer versus one who would not be much help at all looms large in this equation. A good lawyer demands, of himself or herself, doing the homework, getting prepared. This requires far more time and effort, and thus for the client, expense, than many might anticipate.

So finding a lawyer to jump into the fray of a case like this on short notice, at any time, would be a challenge, and over the holidays was, well, as I noted more than two weeks ago, perhaps simply not possible.

Moreover, the number of lawyers who do this, and are experienced in it, is probably fairly small . . . for the whole country, even in the GTA, Montreal, or Vancouver, let alone outside these areas (in which there is the largest concentration of immigrants as well as general population).

Citizenship application advocacy is not a large area of law. I do not know the number of CJ hearings there are these days, but back when the CJ hearing was essentially the default for any non-routine processing, so that test no-shows, any language or knowledge of Canada issues, virtually any non-routine processing could end up involving a CJ hearing, even then there were less than 10k CJ hearings a year (as I recall, going back to the 2006 to 2009 period when we were still seeing an annual Citizenship Commission Annual Report). It was clear that the vast majority of those hearings were knowledge or language testing, including written test no-shows, and a very high percentage of the residency case hearings were short-fall cases.

Thus, the number of residency case hearings in cases involving a reason-to-question-residency, as perceived by CIC, was probably, historically perhaps only a few hundred year. And in the vast majority of cases, applicants would go to these hearings without the assistance of legal representation.

Thus, not a major practice area for lawyers.

Which is a problem for those who really could use the services of a good lawyer.

This also means that even lawyers whose main area of practice, even exclusive area of practice, is immigration and citizenship, are not necessarily extensively experienced in the citizenship residency case involving a reason-to-question-residency. So, for a lawyer to take this sort of case on the eve of a CJ hearing, the good lawyer would have to do a lot of homework in order to be prepared for the hearing. Lawyers actually make their living off doing cases for which a lot of the homework overlaps, that is, in doing many of the same kinds of cases. So a more or less one-off type of case is not attractive and, indeed, for many if not most lawyers, and especially those who are good (thus in far more demand), they do not have the time.

Which is of little or no consolation in your situation.



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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 1:55am
Finally all the action and dram has come to an end, though with a disappointing end result for me - though it was not completely un-expected. The second hearing had a bit of dram with the first date being missed due to a nasty snow storm. We were around 90 minutes late when reached the CIC office. That day was really bad and we started with about 90 minutes buffer. Long story short, the interview was postponed and they said I would be notified. That gave me an additional couple of months to continue my search for a lawyer. A good stroke of luck landed me a reference to an attorney in Toronto who seem to have good reputation albeit rather expensive. After contacting him and providing the references, he agreed to take up my case. The fee was rather steep at 3000$ per hearing per person. So I took his service for both myself and my wife. All the case details and documents were provided to him and he did careful review and suggested we meet a day before the hearing. So I met him at his office in downtown Toronto and he went through my case with a fine-tooth comb. He came at me quite aggressively and later explained that this is how the judge is gonna be and he wanted to see how I respond. We discussed in detail all possibilities and in the end he said that mine is a very unique case with very little possibility of getting an approval considering the circumstances. It all depends on the judge's perspective as based on facts and evidence the judge can rule eitherway as both outcomes have enough supporting evidence. Ultimately it all depends on how the judge views you. If you face an unsympathetic judge, your case is a toast. So it was a sobering thought and in retrospect prepared me for what was coming the next day.

On the day of hearing I went in first and the moment we stepped into the judge's office, it was apparent that she is outright hostile. She was quite aggressive towards my lawyer - it was evident from the way she talked to him and asked him to turn off cell phones etc. - and rather obviously to me as well. Per my lawyers advise, I kept a calm face and kept my expression neutral. She started off with the first assumption of this hearing thrown into the trash bin, which was that the first hearing and its outcome will not have an impact on my second hearing. She had the first judge's hearing and our motion against it and its outcome in hear hand and she started from points highlighted in them. She asked me first, why do you think the first judge rejected my case. I answered that she seem to be very unhappy with my travel records to US and thats where she hung up on me. Then she responded that I made claims that I wanted to offer her evidence on health care and school records but the first judge refused to see them and she wanted to know if I have them handy. I said I have the school records but not the health records. She asked me why to which I said I got an impression that the key conflicting factor in my case appeared to be travel records and hence I spent my effort in correcting that situation and didnt pay attention to medical records since that was not an issue last time. She said that is not a satisfactory reply but wanted to know what I have to offer in terms of my travel records. So I gave her a detailed breakdown of my travel records that I compiled with the help of CBSA and CBP with an excel sheet showing matching same day entry and exit records for most of my travel records. This essentially corroborated my story from day one. She went back and forth and did agree that sometimes border agents dont scan your PR cards and I told her that I have experienced it multiple times during my entry into Canada, though such omissions were not noticed in the recent past. She then moved onto my medical records, job history etc. When I tried to show her utility and cell phone records and some financial records that were sent to my home addresses, she rejected them saying that such records are inconclusive and can't be used. My lawyer has been trying to intervene multiple times but she kept up her stand and refused to look at them. She said that the only thing she would consider is credit card statements that show transactions made inside Canada and doctor visit records. I promised that in a weeks time I can have both records sets sent out to her. She seem to be confused at certain things involving my job transfer and remote work facility and my second son's travel history. For example she couldn't understand how I could work from Canada while employed in US. Also, she asked me how I could bring my son to Canada if he didn't have a PR. I tried explaining to her that remote login is a feature which would allow me to work from anywhere in the world so long as I have a broad band connection. That has got nothing to do with where I get paid. To her other point of contention I tried to explain to her that with my son born in the US, he had a US passport and with the US passport he could freely travel to Canada and stay upto a max period of 180 days before he has to return. My lawyer also tried to clarify this point but she seem confused and un-convinced. The next item that came up was the period of time I spent in Canada right after I became the PR until I managed my permanent transfer. During this period there was a lot of travelling back and forth and we didnt have much of a formal record to show her. I explained to her that during that period we were staying with a friend of ours and we didnt have OHIP at that time nor we did have any Canadian credit cards. We used cash for whatever purchases we have to make and they were very minimal. What are you gonna buy when you are staying with your friends? He does all the grocery, pays for cable and hydro and all we may have to do is once in a while purchase of gas or some pharmacy stuff. So this kind of questioning went on for a good 3 hours and finally we came out then my wife went in along with the lawyer. That interview lasted only about 30 minutes and my wife came back and said she didn't ask much to her.

We then sat down with the lawyer and he said looks like my application is gonna be rejected and he agreed that the judge seem to be completely hostile and was somehow trying to justify the first judge's decision. We agreed to wait and see what happens.

After two months the letter came stating that our application was rejected. This time the judge was very careful in her language and focused all her attention on how to discredit my claimed period of stay within Canada. She attack can be narrowed down to one key point. The lack of any credit card, travel or medical history until I got my permanent job transfer. She in bold letters highlighted that the onus is on the applicant to prove residency and  hence it can be argued that I am not truthful about my residency for the said period of time. I immediately contacted my lawyer and he agreed to review the response and get me a reply in a couple of days time. He responded next week stating that there is ample ground to appeal and overturn the judgement and the fee for the entire process is 15k. He recommended that I consult him in person before taking any decision. So I setup a 1 hour session for 115$ to go over the details. 

He said that considering how she approached the case based on the previous hearing data and refused to look at key evidence like utility bills, it can be successfully appealed and her decision overturned. However the issue is that we would be going in circles with this process. The federal court do not have the right to grant citizenship to the defendant. It can rule if CIC decision was valid or not, but nothing more than that. So if I win, my case goes back to CIC and another hearing is set. What if that judge cites something else and rule against you? Another aspect is that with my PR card expiring in 2017, even if you win, most likely your oath wont take place before that date. So at that point CIC could still block you citing expired PR card. I can't renew the PR card now because I don't have enough residency either. So altogether my path forward is only going to be more complicated even though I win the appeal. I might win the battle, but most likely will loose the war. 

He also said that my status as a landed immigrant is not going to change ever. And with my current status I can enter Canada at anytime and then with the landed immigrant status start building my life in Canada towards citizenship again. So in reality its not a dead end. You just have to give up the current fight which is going to be costly and CIC seem to be determined to stop you at any cost, though on unethical grounds. You are fighting an agency with infinite resources and with a system built to favor itself. 

So in the end I decided to drop my fight and postpone my Canadian drams for a few more years. I wish it didnt end up like this. But there are things that I should have done during my early years which obviously I can't go back in time and fix them. But if anyone is reading this, I would like to tell you this. Keep every scrap of paper which can prove your residency. And if you are planning to count any period of time into your residency, make sure that you have some sort of paper trail that can without any doubt support you in a CIC court. If you thought utility bills or cable bills can talk for you, think again. If you have to go by the CIC language, you can simply get service and pay the bill even if you are not there. The clincher is something that requires your presence to really get that paper trail. Think of credit card transactions, doctor visits etc.

For now am gonna continue my life here and most likely would apply for US citizenship soon. I have dropped all my long term transfer plans to Canada through my office and in the process of closing down my consulting business in Milton as well. May be after a few years, I will take another look at a move to Canada, but for the time being being called a Canadian stays a distant dream.

Thank you all, especially dpenabill for the patience and effort you put in responding to my thread. Wish you all the very best in your quest towards the Canadian dream.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2016 at 2:26pm


A thorough report indeed. Appreciated.

Originally posted by sarin_j sarin_j wrote:


[The lawyer] also said that my status as a landed immigrant is not going to change ever.


Caution: This is not necessarily true.

You must comply with the PR Residency Obligation, spending at least two years in five in Canada.


If you fail to meet the PR Residency Obligation, you could lose PR status!

The PR RO can be met by living with a Canadian citizen spouse. But otherwise you need to meet the PR RO by spending at least two years in five in Canada, and this is relative to every day. Thus, for example, any day you arrive at a PoE to come into Canada, you need to have been present in Canada for at least two years in the five years preceding that date . . . again, unless you are living with a Canadian citizen spouse. Frequent travel back and forth may diminish the extent to which you are scrutinized regarding compliance with the PR RO, but given the ever-increasing extent to which border crossing data is captured and maintained, the risk of problems for falling short are greater now than before and likely to become more so.

Any time you come to Canada you could be questioned about how much time you have spent in Canada in the previous five years. If that is less than two years, you could be reported for being in breach of the PR RO, and issued a Removal Order. That will result in the loss of your PR status unless you appeal and win the appeal. You now have some experience in what it takes to meet the burden of proving when you have been in Canada. The burden of proof will be on you.

It would not surprise me if there was a note of sorts in your FOSS file regarding concern about compliance with the PR RO.


Regarding the outcome:

The outcome is, as you note, not unexpected. That was an expensive lottery ticket.

As I noted early on about your situation, leaving Canada while the application is pending tends to be problematic. Your situation was aggravated by also being employed by an employer abroad, readily supporting the inference that you were abroad unless you could solidly document your presence in Canada. Your explanation about working remotely was dependent on the CJ believing your account, and in such a situation it is reasonable for a fact-finder (which the CJ is) to find the explanation insufficient to meet the burden of proof in the absence of strong documentation as to your actual presence during that time. Given how long ago it was, and the less-than-fully-settled nature of your lifestyle then, obviously that was going to be a difficult burden to meet.

(I understand how skeptical many if not most people are about working remotely. I have done the working-remotely thing for a long time, since the previous century in fact, but my actual relationship with the company I work for is that I am self-employed providing services on an independent contract basis, thus I am not in an employer-employee relationship with the company, thus my "employer" is my own business, which is located where I do the work . . . and indeed I can do what I do almost anywhere in the world so long as there is a broadband connection and the company's internal network and proprietary website are fully accessible (thus I could not do this in Cuba or China for example). At the time I began this, it appeared to be a trend which would expand greatly in the future. But outside of IT (my work is not IT), it does not appear to have expanded much, and most people who ask about my work do not seem to quite grasp how it is I work at home in a relatively isolated Canadian community, surrounded by bush and wilderness for many hundreds of kilometers in every direction, working for a company whose headquarters are in Europe, working with personnel at an office in New York (most of whom I have never met, and otherwise have not personally seen in more than a decade and a half), in a relationship administered in another U.S. state a thousand plus miles from NY, and am paid by an office which, last I knew, was in India but might be in the Phillipines now. Most people wrinkle their brow, utter huh, and, I suspect, do not believe me.)

You probably should have anticipated the questions about medical records. My guess is that they would not have helped much (isolated doctor visits, typical for many people and especially so for younger people, do not document much actual presence), so this probably had minimal effect. But the contrast of arguing in the first case that the failure to review these demonstrated a failure to consider the relevant evidence, and then not upfront providing those, signals an argument made more from artifice than sincerity.


In any event: again, you need to comply with the PR RO in order to retain your PR status.





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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2016 at 4:50pm
dpenabil, there are certain aspects of the PR that were previously unknown to me and explained to me by the lawyer. Again these are based on current law and there is no guarantee that it could stay the same down the lane. I am a little uncomfortable discussing these aspects in a public forum, but the bottom line is that your status as a landed immigrant remains regardless of your residency obligations. The key is how do you enter the country legally. Typical scenario is you need PR card or passport or proof of landing document for a land crossing. If you don't maintain the RO, you will loose PR card, but proof of landing can get you in through a land crossing. It could be difficult but not impossible. Now there are certain combinations of your statuses that could get you in legally and then allow you to stay in Canada allowing you to build RO and then satisfy the requirement for PR renewal ultimately leading to your citizenship. The path is complicated, expensive and is a fine line between legal and illegal status. But its possible. I can't say anything more than that.

Your description of remote working was bang on in my case. The first judge never understood it. The second judge made an attempt to understand it but had no clue when I got into details. She was asking for some sort of formal "letter" allowing me to work remotely to which I explained that most wall street firms give their employees remote access and there is no formal transfer process between work from office and work from home. Just the fact that you are issued a secure token and access code is proof enough that they allow you to work remotely. Apparently that thing flew right above her head and she decided that am just cooking up some fancy story and chose not to believe my story. 

I think that a judge who could understand the nature of an average IT person's job and how the financial meltdown of 2008 affected IT jobs in general would have been more sympathetic to my case. My circumstances were largely dependent on those factors and if you don't understand them then it all appear as a spectacular cock and bull story. Secondly, the judges were pre-disposed towards my case which was confirmed by both my lawyer and another immigration consultant who I spoke with later. The difference between the process explained to me by the CIC prosecutor after the first hearing and what really happened itself explains that the judge instead of following the correct procedure, decided to go after my application with the intent to undermine it. According to the lawyer and the consultant those would have been more than enough to have a federal court throw the decision out. Please note that in my first case, it didnt even take a judge to realize that the decision was completely unreliable. The second was not largely different either. However, in my case the pitfall is the process itself. There is not closure outside of CIC. Had I had an opportunity to take it to the Federal court, I might have done it. But this is a loop where the chances are stacked up against me. Like you said its gamble and in my case an expensive one.

Btw, I did provide the medical records. Fortunately with two schoolgoing children we had to frequent the doctors office a lot more than an average couple would have ;) so with the doctors records, dental visit records, other medical records, bank records and cross checked travel records pretty much made my residency solid between Aug 2007 to Feb 2010. What killed me was the period between Mar 2006 and July 2007. Those were the settling\moving in period where our focus was on settling down and didn't generate much proof of residence. So out of all excuses CIC was using to kill my application, that was the one they finally chose. Interestingly enough neither the first CIC review nor the first judge ever talked about this period. It was almost as if in their scramble to shoot down my application they stumbled upon this and jumped at it. Eitherway, my Canadian dreams are only temporarily postponed. On the plus side I get to have a US passport, which I never thought of until two months ago. So altogether its not so bad.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2016 at 1:15am
Originally posted by sarin_j sarin_j wrote:

dpenabil, there are certain aspects of the PR that were previously unknown to me and explained to me by the lawyer. Again these are based on current law and there is no guarantee that it could stay the same down the lane. I am a little uncomfortable discussing these aspects in a public forum, but the bottom line is that your status as a landed immigrant remains regardless of your residency obligations. The key is how do you enter the country legally. Typical scenario is you need PR card or passport or proof of landing document for a land crossing. If you don't maintain the RO, you will loose PR card, but proof of landing can get you in through a land crossing. It could be difficult but not impossible. Now there are certain combinations of your statuses that could get you in legally and then allow you to stay in Canada allowing you to build RO and then satisfy the requirement for PR renewal ultimately leading to your citizenship. The path is complicated, expensive and is a fine line between legal and illegal status. But its possible. I can't say anything more than that.


I am no expert, but I know the PR Residency Obligation and how it works very well.

It is true that if you never get reported at the border, and never apply for a PR Travel Document, you remain a landed PR unless and until you are reported and that is adjudicated.

But that is not worth much. Once you have been outside Canada more than 1095 days within a five year period, the next time you go to enter Canada, you are entitled to enter as a PR, but you may be issued a 44(1) Report based on breaching the PR RO, and then issued a Departure Order. You then get to come into Canada but must appeal within 30 days. You win the appeal (if you have H&C reasons for example), you get to keep PR status. You lose the appeal, you lose PR status. You would then no longer be a landed PR in Canada. You would be a Foreign National, same status as before landing.

This is how it works.

I do not know your lawyer or what means the lawyer was suggesting. But I have read scores of IAD decisions in which many PRs were confused or misled or did not understand, and lost PR status. There are scores of such decisions day in and day out.

As I said in my previous post, there are ways to reduce the risk of being reported. Frequently coming to Canada and at least on some trips spending more than just a short stay, for example, would tend to mask the totality of absences. But the Liberals introduced legislation just the week before last to capture and make accessible even more border crossing information, including for citizens not just PRs.

BUT make no mistake: a breach of the PR Residency Obligation does not just make it difficult to obtain a status card, and thus being able to use commercial transportation to Canada. A breach of the PR RO can lead to termination of landed status. For sure.

At the least, I would strongly suggest consulting with a different lawyer before proceeding on the basis that you will forever be a landed PR even if you do not comply with the PR RO.

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Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 11:49pm
dpenabil, the scenario you explained was not mentioned to me by the lawyer. If so, then its quite possible that I may have already lost the PR status as I been out of Canada for more than 1095 days in the past 5 years. Eitherway, I have now moved out of Canada pretty much permanently. Last month I closed down my company completely and moved all my operations to US. One good thing with tech consulting is that you can do your job pretty much from anywhere. So now I don't have anything that ties me back to Canada and most likely I might have to start from the scratch if and when I decide to come back to Canada. I sure will miss being a Canadian Cry It was something I was rather proud of.


Posted By: dpenabill
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by sarin_j sarin_j wrote:

dpenabil, the scenario you explained was not mentioned to me by the lawyer. If so, then its quite possible that I may have already lost the PR status as I been out of Canada for more than 1095 days in the past 5 years. Eitherway, I have now moved out of Canada pretty much permanently. Last month I closed down my company completely and moved all my operations to US. One good thing with tech consulting is that you can do your job pretty much from anywhere. So now I don't have anything that ties me back to Canada and most likely I might have to start from the scratch if and when I decide to come back to Canada. I sure will miss being a Canadian. It was something I was rather proud of.


A PR continues to be a PR unless and until formally losing PR status. Good chance you are still a PR. And maybe this is what the lawyer was referring to. But . . .

There is a difference between being in breach of the PR Residency Obligation and actually losing PR status. PR status is not lost until it is formally adjudicated as lost. So, unless you have been issued a Removal Order, or denied a PR Travel Document, or formally surrendered PR status, you would still have PR status. But as I observed before, that does not really mean a whole lot after being in breach of the PR RO by a real lot, since the next time you attempted to go to Canada would probably trigger the formal process for losing PR status.

So, you may indeed still be a PR, but not able to return to live in Canada as a PR because you will likely lose it if you tried. In the past, though, many PRs who were outside Canada for a very long time somehow managed to get back into Canada without being reported, and then all they had to do was stay for two years, and then their breach of the PR is cured, they can apply for a new PR card, and continue to be a PR. But this is dependent on getting into Canada without being reported, which is more and more difficult to do as border controls, even for driving across the border, get more and more strict.

In any event, probably obvious that I very much think highly of being a Canadian, and while I have had my share of disappointments in life, becoming a Canadian has made up for a lot of them.

-------------
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration


Posted By: sarin_j
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2017 at 8:49pm
So, you are still a PR until you are explicitly removed or your PR status officially surrendered. If getting into Canada is the only road block, how about being a US citizen? Once you are a US citizen, you can enter Canada without any issue. Once you are there, and if you continue to live for 2 years, can you renew your PR status? I think that is what the lawyer was referring to.

I don't have any regrets even though the process was a nightmare. Instead I am quite disappointed in the offhand way Citizenship judges are appointed who have serious discretion over peoples lives. Some of these judges are so ignorant, biased and outright stupid, it really angers me to see how they hold sway over people's lives. I was fortunate that I could keep going with some major inconveniences, but what about people who perhaps face a life or death situation at the hand of these judges? That was my only concern.



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