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ODSP/Ontario Works Discretionary Benefits

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kparker1786 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kparker1786 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: ODSP/Ontario Works Discretionary Benefits
    Posted: 16 May 2012 at 3:57pm
Does ANYONE know anything about this? I had to hang up on immigration because of how rude they were to me. Here's the situation.

I'm hearing impaired, plus I have several other medical conditions, one being PCOS, which screws with my insulin and such. So, I need an IUD(sorry guys who are reading this haha) so I asked ODSP if they cover it. They tell me I need to go to Ontario Works. Now, I know that social assistance aka Ontario Works is NOT allowed when sponsoring, but ODSP told me that it's just a one time thing, and to try calling Immigration and Ontario Works to see what they know about it. 

So, I call Immigration first. On hold for 10 minutes, I finally get a woman and I explain everything I just said and she says "I'm sorry Ma'am we don't deal with that, this is immigration. You are aware you called immigration right?"  Roll Eyes I told her I know and that I was told to call immigration and see if I would be able to apply for it. She then says in a really annoyed tone "Apply for WHAT?!" ... Naturally I was getting mad and I was shocked at how she spoke to me, so I had to take a deep breath. Told her AGAIN it's ODSP/OW Discretionary benefits... "We don't deal with that ma'am, we don't even know what Ontario Works IS." Seriously? How do you NOT know what that is when it's something that isn't allowed. ARGH! So I said "Okay thanks anyway" And hung up without letting her say anything else. 

I left a message with Ontario Works office near here.

Does anyone have any idea about this? Like I said, it's only a one time thing, it's not on-going at all. I'm worried about applying for it because I don't want to affect my husband's application at all. 

Ohhh I'm so frustrated  Angry
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dpenabill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2012 at 5:53pm
The idea of calling the CIC call centre to "see what they know about it" suggests that you should have been well aware that they quite likely would NOT know the answer to the question. They didn't. There was no need to be rude and hang up or such.

To be honest, it is hard to understand why you thought a telephone representative for CIC nationally, dealing with a wide, wide range of immigration related questions, would know the particulars of a specific provincial program. I do not know where the actual call centre is located, but there is a good chance it is not in Ontario.

Bottom-line for the call centre representatives is that they provide what is essentially FAQ type information, little more. They do not assess cases or make judgments, and probably are prohibited from stating an opinion. If they cannot look up the answer specifically, an answer that would apply to everyone regardless of other circumstances, they will not be able to give an answer.

Ontario Works may not know the answer either. They should know what the eligibility requirements are and what the potential benefits are, but they might not know how that affects eligibility to sponsor a partner for PR.

They might, however, give you an answer that will enable you to figure out the probable effect: would such a benefit, would such assistance, be for a reason other than disability? If no, OK. If yes, not OK. Probably. I will explain this part more below. But this is merely my opinion, my view about how to look at the situation in such a way as to figure out the most likely effect.

In contrast, to obtain a relatively authoritative opinion as to whether a particular benefit from a particular government entity constitutes the receipt of social assistance for a reason other than disability (and thus would make the individual ineligible to sponsor a partner for PR), you could consult with an attorney. But you probably cannot afford an attorney (otherwise you would not need the assistance in the first place).

I do not know a definitive answer to your query.

I do know what the regulation states:

Quote From the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations:
Quote 133. (1) A sponsorship application shall only be approved by an officer if, on the day on which the application was filed and from that day until the day a decision is made with respect to the application, there is evidence that the sponsor . . .
(k) is not in receipt of social assistance for a reason other than disability.
(emphasis added)


It appears that the duration of the assistance is not the issue. Will one day of assistance make a person ineligible to sponsor? Technically the answer appears to be yes. Practically, I do not know.

But, this suggests that the fact that it is a one-time benefit is not the question, since technically that seems to constitute the "receipt" of "assistance."

The question, it seems to me, is whether or not the assistance is for a reason other than disability. If it is for a disability, then it should not render the individual ineligible to sponsor. It should be OK. If it is for a reason other than disability, it appears that it does constitute assistance that will render the individual ineligible to sponsor.

But, one does have wonder about how this, a one-time benefit, will affect things in practical terms. I have no idea. I doubt that any ordinary call centre person at any of the entities involved will know the answer to this.

But if you could get clarification, that would most likely come from Ontario Works itself, as to whether this benefit, this assistance, is "for a reason other than disability" . . . or not . . . that should give you a big clue. If for disability, OK. If not, probably not OK.

I wonder how close your case is to a final decision. Once the decision is made, you would be OK for sure. You do not have to wait until the visa is in your partner's hands even, just long enough to know that a final decision has been made to grant the visa.

I do wonder, too, whether this sort of one-time benefit will or will not be considered to be in "receipt of assistance," as a matter of how something like this is looked at in practice (not technically, but in how it is looked at, or possibly even simply ignored, in practice). I think, though, getting an answer to that question, especially an answer you can rely upon, is not going to be easy. (In a different context, involving very different issues and different government entities, but actually entities under one umbrella within the Federal government, I recently attempted to deal with an issue that involved elements from the two different entities and because everyone is so specialized in what they do these days it is very, very difficult to find someone who can offer much information when multiple entities are involved. I was lucky, after about seven or eight telephone calls I happened to get someone who understood much of what my issues were and who was able to dissect my issues and direct me to the various persons who could respectively answer those separate parts . . . but this was largely the luck of the draw, getting someone who had worked in a few different roles in the government and so was familiar with the other entities and issues involved. And it was difficult getting to that stage . . . dealing with something entirely within one overall branch of the Federal government. You are dealing with the impact of issues in not only different government entities, but entities which are in completely different areas of government, the Federal government on one hand and a provincial government on the other. Life is not simple anymore. Not by a long, long shot.)
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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kparker1786 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kparker1786 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2012 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:

The idea of calling the CIC call centre to "see what they know about it" suggests that you should have been well aware that they quite likely would NOT know the answer to the question. They didn't. There was no need to be rude and hang up or such.

No, in fact, I didn't know if they would know the anwser or not. ODSP told me to call them and find out if I could apply for it. So how was I to know about the fact they didn't know? The only way I WOULD know is to call. The thing that was rude to me, was the way she talked to me once she finds out I'm on ODSP, pretty much like most people do (Like I have low IQ, which I don't)

To be honest, it is hard to understand why you thought a telephone representative for CIC nationally, dealing with a wide, wide range of immigration related questions, would know the particulars of a specific provincial program. I do not know where the actual call centre is located, but there is a good chance it is not in Ontario. 

Why I thought they would know? Because Ontario Works is classified as welfare.   

Bottom-line for the call centre representatives is that they provide what is essentially FAQ type information, little more. They do not assess cases or make judgments, and probably are prohibited from stating an opinion. If they cannot look up the answer specifically, an answer that would apply to everyone regardless of other circumstances, they will not be able to give an answer.

Ontario Works may not know the answer either. They should know what the eligibility requirements are and what the potential benefits are, but they might not know how that affects eligibility to sponsor a partner for PR. 

They actually did. They answered my question after I had posted this.  

They might, however, give you an answer that will enable you to figure out the probable effect: would such a benefit, would such assistance, be for a reason other than disability? If no, OK. If yes, not OK. Probably. I will explain this part more below. But this is merely my opinion, my view about how to look at the situation in such a way as to figure out the most likely effect.

In contrast, to obtain a relatively authoritative opinion as to whether a particular benefit from a particular government entity constitutes the receipt of social assistance for a reason other than disability (and thus would make the individual ineligible to sponsor a partner for PR), you could consult with an attorney. But you probably cannot afford an attorney (otherwise you would not need the assistance in the first place). 

You'd be correct, I'm not working right now due to my broken foot. (Unrelated to ODSP) 

I do not know a definitive answer to your query.

I do know what the regulation states:

Quote From the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations:
Quote 133. (1) A sponsorship application shall only be approved by an officer if, on the day on which the application was filed and from that day until the day a decision is made with respect to the application, there is evidence that the sponsor . . .
(k) is not in receipt of social assistance for a reason other than disability.
(emphasis added)


It appears that the duration of the assistance is not the issue. Will one day of assistance make a person ineligible to sponsor? Technically the answer appears to be yes. Practically, I do not know.

But, this suggests that the fact that it is a one-time benefit is not the question, since technically that seems to constitute the "receipt" of "assistance."

The question, it seems to me, is whether or not the assistance is for a reason other than disability. If it is for a disability, then it should not render the individual ineligible to sponsor. It should be OK. If it is for a reason other than disability, it appears that it does constitute assistance that will render the individual ineligible to sponsor.

But, one does have wonder about how this, a one-time benefit, will affect things in practical terms. I have no idea. I doubt that any ordinary call centre person at any of the entities involved will know the answer to this.

But if you could get clarification, that would most likely come from Ontario Works itself, as to whether this benefit, this assistance, is "for a reason other than disability" . . . or not . . . that should give you a big clue. If for disability, OK. If not, probably not OK.

I wonder how close your case is to a final decision. Once the decision is made, you would be OK for sure. You do not have to wait until the visa is in your partner's hands even, just long enough to know that a final decision has been made to grant the visa. 

I'm no where NEAR that. I'm still sitting at CIC-M. It's been 70 days so I still have another month or so. That's why I was concerned about it.  

I do wonder, too, whether this sort of one-time benefit will or will not be considered to be in "receipt of assistance," as a matter of how something like this is looked at in practice (not technically, but in how it is looked at, or possibly even simply ignored, in practice). I think, though, getting an answer to that question, especially an answer you can rely upon, is not going to be easy. (In a different context, involving very different issues and different government entities, but actually entities under one umbrella within the Federal government, I recently attempted to deal with an issue that involved elements from the two different entities and because everyone is so specialized in what they do these days it is very, very difficult to find someone who can offer much information when multiple entities are involved. I was lucky, after about seven or eight telephone calls I happened to get someone who understood much of what my issues were and who was able to dissect my issues and direct me to the various persons who could respectively answer those separate parts . . . but this was largely the luck of the draw, getting someone who had worked in a few different roles in the government and so was familiar with the other entities and issues involved. And it was difficult getting to that stage . . . dealing with something entirely within one overall branch of the Federal government. You are dealing with the impact of issues in not only different government entities, but entities which are in completely different areas of government, the Federal government on one hand and a provincial government on the other. Life is not simple anymore. Not by a long, long shot.)

All in all. Because I am on ODSP, I cannot go on OW. This benefit goes through ODSP specifically, though Social Works Disability. I'm only saying this in case anyone else is going through the same thing and needs an answer. So I am able to get this benefit, Ontario Works answered this question for me with a return call.

Thank you for your reply though dpenabill. :)
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