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jogruni View Drop Down
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Points: 393 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jogruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 5:28pm
Hi,
I am new to the group, because I am just in the process of writing and filing my first renewal aplication, so I was already gathering information on the renewal.

But I have to add a comment to the days calculation:
Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:


...
I calculate that as of June 22 (date you submitted application) your presence in Canada totalled 680 days, as follows:

Jun 7, 2011 - Jun 22 2011 - - - - 14 days
Jun 1, 2010 - Nov 20 2010 - - - - 172 days
July 7, 2008 - Sep 18 2009 - - - - 434 days
July 7, 2006 - Sep 9 2006 - - - - 60 days   
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -
Total - - - - - - - - - - 680 days
This is what counts for an application submitted in June this year.
...

I think you can calculate a few more day. I found a document :
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/op/op10-eng.pdf
This document seems to be a guideline on how to determine the residency status.
It seems official and it is from the cic website. Nevertheless I am not sure, if it is still valid.

In 6.4 it clearly says:
...For the purpose of calculating the number of days to comply with the residency obligation in IRPA
A28(2)(a), a day includes a full day or any part of a day that a permanent resident is physically
present in Canada. Any part of a day spent in Canada, or otherwise in compliance with A28(2)(a),
is to be counted as one full day for the purpose of calculating the 730 days in a five-year period.

So if you look at the time July 7 - July 22, assuming these are the travel dates (flight left some time on that day), both days, the 7th and the 22nd count as a full day. So this periode adds up to 16 days, not 14.

I think in a case where the travel dates can be proved by passport stamps or tickets and the number of days are marginal around the magic 730 days (or 1095 days outside) it might help to refer to this document to back up your application. But I would not already use it in the initial application.

In the application you have to enter only month and year + number of days absent, so at that point, they do not yet want more detailed dates and calculation.




Edited by jogruni - 15 Aug 2011 at 11:29am
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dpenabill View Drop Down
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Points: 6407 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2011 at 6:52am
Thank you for finding that reference.

Although, actually it is in ENF 23 "Loss of Permanent Resident Status" at
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/enf/enf23-eng.pdf, page 11.

So, that does add in more days . . . essentially one more for each trip. (The citizenship residency calculation in contrast counts only one or the other.)
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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jogruni View Drop Down
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Points: 393 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jogruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2011 at 1:14am
It really seems that there is a difference in the calculation fort the purpose od dertermination of the Permanent Resident status and Citizenship. I asked the webmaster and got the following reply:
Originally posted by CIC-Webmaster CIC-Webmaster wrote:


Thank you for your email regarding Citizenship and Immigration Canada’s Residence Calculator online service. We apologize for the delay in responding to you.

The online calculator is to determine if an applicant meet the requirements to apply to become a Canadian citizen. 

The calculator uses the following rules to determine the number of days absent for each absence declared:

  • When calculating an absence, either the day you leave Canada or the day you return is considered an absence, but not both. For example, an absence between July 1, 2003 and July 15, 2003 equals 14 days of absence.
  • If you leave Canada and come back the same day, you do not have to declare an absence.
  • An absence on February 29 (leap day) is not counted as an absence, nor is it credited as a presence. The Citizenship Act states that an applicant for citizenship must have accumulated three years of residence. Three years has been interpreted in the jurisprudence as 1,095 days, which is why leap days are neither counted as a presence nor an absence.
  • Total residence days ending in .5 are rounded up in your favour.
  • The total number of days absent includes all absences from Canada within the four-year period immediately preceding the date of your application. Because the time spent in Canada before you became a permanent resident is only credited as half-time, absences from Canada before you obtained permanent resident status are divided by two before they are included in the total number of days absent. 

For information purposes, please note that the definition you provided for the word “day” is for the purpose of calculating if a permanent resident complies with the residency obligation.

Your comments are very important to us. We sincerely appreciate that you took the time to provide us with the details of your online service experience. 

Sincerely,

Citizenship and Immigration Canada



So "absence day" is slightly different for PR and citizenship.
To be safe, you should meet the citizenship requirements.Wink

Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:

Thank you for finding that reference.
Although, actually it is in ENF 23 "Loss of Permanent Resident Status" at
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/enf/enf23-eng.pdf, page 11.

BTW my reference has a newer date than yours.LOLThumbs Up


Edited by jogruni - 16 Aug 2011 at 1:21am
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kfq View Drop Down
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Points: 113 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kfq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2011 at 9:50pm
6.4. Day
Section 27(2) of the Interpretation Act governs the calculation of time limits in federal statutes.
Where a statute refers to a number of days between two events (and precedes the number of
days with the words “at least”), both the day of occurrence of the first event as well as the day of
occurrence of the second event are to be counted in calculating the number of days. For the
purpose of calculating the number of days to comply with the residency obligation in IRPA
A28(2)(a), a day includes a full day or any part of a day that a permanent resident is physically
present in Canada. Any part of a day spent in Canada, or otherwise in compliance with A28(2)(a),
is to be counted as one full day for the purpose of calculating the 730 days in a five-year period.

this definition I found in OP-10
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Naseh View Drop Down
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Points: 15 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Naseh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2011 at 3:30pm
Hi I just want to ask one more question I am safe after my obligattion is over that means according to the calculation you did the days are completed in the mid october.After that date is it possible to attach another ticket with the paying reciept so that they can make it urgent.Please guide me with this and is it also possible to reapply after that date.
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dpenabill View Drop Down
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Points: 6407 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2011 at 5:24pm
Hard one to call Naseh. I suspect that your history now will trigger at least some level of scrutiny as to satisfying the residency obligation, so I doubt an urgent application will be processed urgently. But I do not know. This is just my guess.

See the full discussion regarding kfq's situation, especially the parts about the fact that an urgent application alerts CIC to the applicant's intent to leave Canada, and if the applicant just barely meets the RO, many such applicants would soon be in breach of the RO again after obtaining a new PR card. Remember, just having a new PR card does not cure being in breach of the residency obligation. If you leave and subsequently attempt to return to Canada, and they ascertain you have been absent for more than 1095 days in the previous five years, you are in breach of the RO and subject to being issued a removal order NO MATTER what the validity date of your PR card is.
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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Harmonia View Drop Down
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"many such applicants would soon be in breach of the RO again after obtaining a new PR card"...

A little confused here...  if the PR card is new, it's generally good for 5 years.  If I had 2 years (730 days) in Canada when I applied for the card, and assuming I didn't leave until I got the new one, then left Canada once I got the renewed PR card - I would not be in breach of the residency obligations for 3 years plus a day after I left.   I guess that could be considered 'soon' my some accounts given various life situations.
 
Dpen -- is the point you're trying to make that CIC does not look favourably upon those people that maintian their PR status, but seem to have questionable intent to actually settle in Canada?  (i.e. it looks bad if you're only here for 730 days out of every 5 years)
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jogruni View Drop Down
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Points: 393 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jogruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2011 at 11:28am
Originally posted by Harmonia Harmonia wrote:

...A little confused here...  if the PR card is new, it's generally good for 5 years.

This post explains in detail what you are asking for:

http://www.immigration.ca/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7625&PID=148478&title=how-to-count-days#148478

But again a valid PR-card has nothing to do with complying with RO or residency status!!!

Originally posted by Harmonia Harmonia wrote:

Dpen -- is the point you're trying to make that CIC does not look favourably upon those people that maintian their PR status, but seem to have questionable intent to actually settle in Canada?  (i.e. it looks bad if you're only here for 730 days out of every 5 years)

If the speed limit in a city is 50km/h, why should it be suspicious, if you are driving 49km/h ???

More than 730 days in Canada within prevous 5 years since you became PR and you are complying (I know it is a bit more complicated - see above link). Less than 730 days within last 5 years and you depend on mercy in H&C area.

But as long as you are inside Canada, nobody will question the RO and you do not even have to have a valid PR card.
But when entering Canada, your RO might be checked.


Edited by jogruni - 23 Aug 2011 at 11:28am
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Harmonia View Drop Down
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Points: 609 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harmonia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2011 at 11:43am
I'm not questioning the validity of the PR status, I understand that you have PR status until you lose it, and there are only a few ways that you lose it (removal order, voluntary revokation of PR, becoming a citizen, etc.). 
 
I was more interested in why I keep seeing that it's good (advisable) to have more than 730 days when applying for the card.  Have there been people who were refused the renewal of their PR card that have had 730 days?   Or is it just that if you're right on the edge, you're opening up reason for CIC to do an investigation to validate your phyical presence here in Canada?
 
I've only been reading this section of the forum (Preserving PR) for about a year - so I don't have all the historical data (from the previous site).  Have there been many cases of people getting scrutinized because they are 'just at' 730 days... ? 
Citizenship App Sent: December 2012
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dpenabill View Drop Down
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Points: 6407 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2011 at 11:56am
Ditto jogruni

It has been said often but it seems to not be that well grasped:

The validity date on a PR card has NOTHING to do with whether or not a PR is in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation.

Note that in contrast, for example, when the PR card is expired, that does not affect the status of the PR. A PR is still a PR, and as long as they remain "admissible" their status is secure, no PR card necessary. (A PR becomes inadmissible if in breach of the RO or if they have engaged in serious criminality or are otherwise a security threat.)

The confusion, usually, is rooted in the idea that a person with a newly issued PR card, valid for another five years, has five more years in which to accumulate 730 days in Canada. WRONG, not true. Compliance with the RO is based on the immediately preceding five years, and, again, the validity dates on the PR card are irrelevant..

It is probably true, as most reports suggest, that a PR with a relatively newly issued PR card, is a lot, lot less likely to be questioned about meeting the RO. And, even those who are in breach but have a valid PR card seem to be given quite a bit of leeway at the POE.


But the key is that any PR who has been closely examined in secondary about complying with the RO, or had to submit additional documents regarding the RO in the course of applying for and obtaining a new PR card, probably has some entry into his or her record, into FOSS if it was a POE secondary examination, that will alert POE personnel that compliance with the RO has been an issue in the past, and thus, depending on the circumstances, always depending on the circumstances, may be questioned about meeting the RO upon approaching a POE and at that point what matters is how many days the PR has been in Canada during the immediately preceding five years AND how long the PR is valid for is totally irrelevant.

Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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