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Sponsorship with criminal inadmissibility

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mpottier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mpottier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2012 at 12:55am
Wow, just another update after over a year. Well it took them about a year to process our initial PR application, no idea why, as the website says 8-9 months. Anyway, it was rejected as was expected, you would think for something so routine, they could come to a decision in a couple of weeks, as our application was pretty obvious. Also, just a side note, the amount of errors and typos in our refusal letter was shocking! How unprofessional, especially for delivery of such bad news. Anyway, we did apply for the TRP as I noted earlier in this forum, and they said they will let us know the outcome of this by around March 30th. So keep your fingers crossed. 
Also, they did give us the appeal form, if we should decide to file an appeal for the PR, but I am not sure we should bother since we applied for the TRP. Should we send off the appeal, is there any chance (neither of us are in Canada to show up to a hearing)? Any advice?

Again many Thanks!
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computergeek View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote computergeek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2012 at 4:46pm
I've had to become familiar with the TRP process due to my own peculiar situation (legally in Canada on a work permit, filed for PR in the Federal Skilled Worker category, issue in medical and a determination that even though I don't need treatment now, the potential cost of future treatment exceeded the threshold - about $61,000 over 10 years as of 1 December - and no amount of private insurance or opting out of BC medical - which is a legal option in BC although not most other provinces was enough, so I was denied.  I'm now married to a Canadian citizen, in fact, and the visa office knew that, but you can't "switch categories".)  With a finding of medical inadmissibility I have to worry each time I cross the border that I might be turned away.  So I carry around all the paperwork for a POE TRP application now, including everything that's been filed on my original case (currently on appeal,) along with the new (spousal sponsored) application.

The odds of obtaining a TRP for medical inadmissibility is vanishingly small - in 2010 they issued 175.  In the world.  What it takes to be successful is a compelling case.  Spousal cases are the one category specifically called out in OP 20 and I've read elsewhere that "senior border officers are trained to permit TRPs in spousal cases in many circumstances."  The fact you have options actually counts against your H&C application (you do have the option of going to the US together, for example.)

At this point, you should have a decision on the TRP soon.  Did you ever order a copy of your CAIPS/GSSM notes?  If not, I'd suggest doing it (although you won't get them before the TRP decision at this point, it takes 5-6 weeks to get them.)  Since you are not in Canada, you need to have someone IN CANADA request them.  There are firms that will do so for a modest fee ($30 or so) and then forward them to you via e-mail.  Those notes will give you greater insight into the decision making process.

As for appeal, it would make sense to do so.  Since you applied outland, you have a right of appeal to the IAD and they can also consider H&C grounds - and you'll have a TRP or the case notes for why a TRP wasn't issued.

If you choose NOT to appeal, all the TRP gives your spouse is a tenuous right to remain in Canada.  TRPs can be revoked at any time and they are not guaranteed to be renewable.  So I suppose she can wait until she can complete rehabilitiation, but that means starting the PR process five years after final disposition of the case (which sounds like 2018 if she can get her license back in 2013, although I'm not entirely sure how CIC interprets the five year requirement here.)  That's a long time to live with uncertainty like this.

Were I in your shoes, I'd request an appeal.  It will likely take you 18 months before they'll even schedule a hearing, and in the interim, you can work on the TRP.

I would also suggest trying to find an attorney familiar with TRPs for criminal inadmissibility.  There ARE people who specialize in this type of application - and you don't want someone without experience.   I picked my attorney by looking at Federal Court decisions applicable to my circumstances and found one who had won his clients' case.  That doesn't guarantee success, but it does mean the attorney is good enough to GET judicial review (which is NOT automatic and quite difficult to be successful - my personal estimate is that there's about a 4% chance of a judicial review being successful for the applicant.  That's because ~20% of applications are accepted for review, and about 20% of cases reviewed are successful for the applicant.)

Good luck.  I hope it works out well for you.
FSW applied 6/09, denied (med inadmissible) 12/11. JR leave granted 7/12, discontinued 9/12. Spousal app PPR 9/12. Landed 13 October 2012
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mpottier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mpottier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2012 at 9:22pm
Thank our so much for your input, it is very helpful. I think I will put in the appeal, and at least start the process. Yes, I have heard that the medical inadmissibility is difficult to overcome, I am glad you managed to overcome it. Also, just note, with my spouse she would be eligible for rehabilitation around 2014 she got her licence back 3 months after her incident in 2009 (We misunderstood the original law). So a TRP can be issued long enough for her to later apply for "rehabilitation" under the TRP.
I think you are right that we have options hurting our chances for appeal, but it should be noted that I cannot go to the USA to live as we are common law, and these relationships are not eligible for sponsorship in the US. Also, in order for an American to sponsor a spouse they must live in the USA and be employed in the USA. My spouse lives in Korea.
We also don't mind living with a TRP, as it will allow her to work (ones issue for longer than 6 months can get work or student permits)., and even be entitled to some provincial services (healthcare etc). We live in Korea under a wok permit, and they too can be taken any time, so we are used to living under this type of threat. I myself have lived in a quite a few countries under a few different visas, and they always got renewed, usually these type of visas are not renewed if you break the law or something of that nature in-country. However, this is just my intuition. Again thank you so much for your input, it was very helpful.

All the best.
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Siouxie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siouxie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2012 at 2:00pm

Originally posted by mpottier mpottier wrote:

We have also got a criminal record check from her state of Maine, and we have the FBI on the way. We went to the court house in her home town and got all the dockets and documents pertaining to her case. We also have letters of recommendations from her school principle and 3 prominent community members, including some Canadians (her grandmother is also Canadian).  So we will have all the documents required when we apply for the TRP when I have officially sponsored her.

A quick question for you.  You said earlier that your partners Grandmother is Canadian - was your partner's parent born in Canada or if born outside, did they apply for citizenship at any point?

Could your partner's parent possibly be a Canadian citizen and not realise it?

If you go to this website (below)  you may be able to ascertain if your partner's parent is Canadian - and depending on when your partner was born (and the rules in force at that time) find out if there is any possibility that she could apply to be a Canadian Citizen herself, thus overcoming the inadmissibility problem and as a bonus you wouldn't have to sponsor her!

Just thinking outside the box :)

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/facts/lost.asp  People born between 1941 and 1977 - 
...born outside Canada to a Canadian parent in the first generation born abroad. Citizenship is automatic and retroactive to the date of loss or the date of birth, depending on the situation. All individuals who were Canadian citizens at the time the law came into effect will keep their citizenship.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/faq/citizenship/index.asp#rules


My children were born before April 17, 2009, in the second generation outside Canada, but I haven’t yet applied for their proof of citizenship (also called citizenship certificate). Now that the new law is in effect, does this mean that they are not Canadian?

No. Anyone who was a citizen when the law came into force will keep their citizenship, regardless of the generation in which they were born, and regardless of whether they were ever issued a proof of citizenship. You can apply for a proof of citizenship for your child at any time, from inside or outside Canada.

Find out more about how to apply for 


I was born in the second generation outside Canada and will turn 28 after April 17, 2009. Do I still need to take steps to retain my Canadian citizenship before my 28th birthday?

No. Everyone who was a citizen when the law came into force will keep their citizenship, even if they were born in the second or subsequent generations outside Canada. The new citizenship law eliminates the need for those born outside Canada in the second or subsequent generations to retain their citizenship. However, if someone who was born in the second generation outside Canada turned 28 before April 17, 2009, and did not take steps to retain their citizenship, they are no longer considered a citizen as of their 28th birthday.

The new law will not restore their citizenship. People who ceased to be Canadian citizens can apply to resume their Canadian citizenship.


"Am I a Canadian Citizen"  http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules-citizenship.asp



Edited by Siouxie - 09 Mar 2012 at 2:35pm
This is only my opinion... CIC are a law unto themselves
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mpottier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mpottier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2012 at 11:11pm
Yes I have looked into that and unfortunately, both her parents are from the USA, only her Grandmother is a Canadian citizen (On her fathers side). That also points out another flaw in the Canadian system, most countries in the world have some sort of grandfather clause to allow you to live in you ancestral country. For example if you have at least one parent or grandparent born in the UK or Ireland you can apply for a residence visa.  The same goes with most European countries. Here in Korea you just have to have a Korean name and they will automatically give you an open residence visa! All of these visas have few if any inadmissibility clauses. The problem with Canada is that there are too few visas. If you can't get a PR, then you have few options or you have to combine visas, it's absurd. Here in Korea, there are dozens of visas, the PR is barely used, because people are happy enough to be able to work and be with family, renewing a visa every couple of years is not a problem. I still can't get over how harsh the Canadian system is. As a Canadian I am embarrassed. 

Also, just an interesting side note, my spouse is from a part of Maine that used to be part of Canada over 150 years ago. Canada relinquished it to the States after the Aroostook War. If she had been born a century earlier, she would have been Canadian. 
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Siouxie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siouxie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 2:22am
Originally posted by mpottier mpottier wrote:

Yes I have looked into that and unfortunately, both her parents are from the USA, only her Grandmother is a Canadian citizen (On her fathers side). That also points out another flaw in the Canadian system, most countries in the world have some sort of grandfather clause to allow you to live in you ancestral country. For example if you have at least one parent or grandparent born in the UK or Ireland you can apply for a residence visa.  The same goes with most European countries. Here in Korea you just have to have a Korean name and they will automatically give you an open residence visa! All of these visas have few if any inadmissibility clauses. The problem with Canada is that there are too few visas. If you can't get a PR, then you have few options or you have to combine visas, it's absurd. Here in Korea, there are dozens of visas, the PR is barely used, because people are happy enough to be able to work and be with family, renewing a visa every couple of years is not a problem. I still can't get over how harsh the Canadian system is. As a Canadian I am embarrassed. 

Also, just an interesting side note, my spouse is from a part of Maine that used to be part of Canada over 150 years ago. Canada relinquished it to the States after the Aroostook War. If she had been born a century earlier, she would have been Canadian. 

But Canada does have Citizenship by decent!  If you have a Grandparent or Parent born in Canada, provided you fall within the law at the time of your birth or the 2009 Citizenship law, then you can claim Citizenship!  If you read the links I posted, it explains it.

If her Father's Mother (her Grandmother) was born in Canada and is therefore automatically a Canadian Citizen her Father will almost certainly be a Canadian Citizen even if he has not applied for Citizenship, and even if he was born and lives in the US. (First Generation born outside Canada).  http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules.asp

Your partner would then possibly be able to claim citizenship despite the fact that she was also born in the US. (Second generation born outside Canada).

Have you checked where her Father was born?  If he was born in Canada and then moved to the US your partner would be Canadian automatically. (First generation born outside Canada).

Please look into it again, if there is even a chance I am correct it would save you a lot of troubles for very little time - just do the "Am I a Canadian Citizen" quiz once for her Father and then once for her... if I am wrong I apologise, if I am correct then you are in a great position!

:)


Edited by Siouxie - 10 Mar 2012 at 2:28am
This is only my opinion... CIC are a law unto themselves
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mpottier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 2:33am
Her father was born in the USA, and unfortunately when we took the citizenship quiz with her info and she didn't qualify. Even if she did, it would take years for her to get granted this, which is far too long for us to wait. I guess that is another problem with the Canadian system, everything takes forever. It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't take a year to do the simplest task. A PR should take a few weeks or a month if everything is in order. As it does in most other countries. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mpottier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 3:11am
PS. The new law introduced in 2009, limits the citizenship by decent to one generation born outside of Canada, so her father may be able to get it, but he would not be able to pass it on to her :-( They said it was to not devalue Canadian citizenship, which in my opinion is a joke, Canada is nice but not THAT nice, we are not living in a Utopia here. This just hurts regular people who have no desire to live in Canada for economic or financial gain, but to simply be with their families. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siouxie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 6:46am


The 2009 Citizenship Act limits Citizenship to those born out sideof Canada to one generation if they are born after 2009.  Anyone who was entitled to Canadian Citizenship (with a couple of exceptions which should not apply to your girlfriend) prior to that law coming into force retains their rights to Canadian Citizenship.

The limitation affects the way people acquire Canadian citizenship outside Canada. It means that, in general, children born outside Canada on or after April 17, 2009, will only be Canadian at birth if they are born to a Canadian parent who was either born in Canada or became a Canadian citizen by immigrating to Canada as a permanent resident and subsequently being granted citizenship (also called naturalization).
 

Have you actually tried the quiz for her Father?  Have you read the relevant sections I pointed out to you?

If your girlfriend puts her Father's details in, as I have suggested, she can ascertain if HE is entitled to Canadian Citizenship - which, if born to a Canadian Citizen he should be.

Others, who have never been Canadians, but who are part of the first generation born outside Canada to a Canadian parent, became Canadians under the new law. Their citizenship is retroactive to their date of birth.


My children were born before April 17, 2009, in the second generation outside Canada, but I haven’t yet applied for their proof of citizenship (also called citizenship certificate). Now that the new law is in effect, does this mean that they are not Canadian?

No. Anyone who was a citizen when the law came into force will keep their citizenship, regardless of the generation in which they were born, and regardless of whether they were ever issued a proof of citizenship. You can apply for a proof of citizenship for your child at any time, from inside or outside Canada.


If she then does the quiz, knowing that her Father is a Canadian Citizen, she may find a different result to that which you have stated.

If your child was born outside Canada after February 14, 1977, and you were a Canadian citizen when the child was born, your child is automatically a Canadian citizen.

I already did the quiz on both of their behalves, assuming that her Father was born outside of Canada after 1947 but before 1973 and provided his Mother didn't rescind her Citizenship, he should be entitled to Canadian Citizenship by decent (1st generation born outside Canada).

When I input the hypothetical details in for your girlfriend - assuming that she was under 28 in 2009 - and with the knowledge that her Father should be entitled to Canadian Citizenship, she should also be entitled to Canadian Citizenship by decent. (2nd generation born outside Canada).

The Act is very specific and I spent a lot of time reading up on it prior to posting.

As to your comment about it taking  years - if she can offer proof (birth certificates etc) it should not take that long, certainly under a year.  If she has to apply for Criminal Rehabilitation it will take much longer, it seems that she may not even be able to apply for it  (if her 2nd DUI is counted) for several years yet.

The choice is yours, of course, but if I were in your position I would be jumping all over this possibility.

Good luck to you both and I hope it works out for you.


Edited by Siouxie - 10 Mar 2012 at 7:05am
This is only my opinion... CIC are a law unto themselves
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mpottier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 7:28am
Hmmmm, I think a call to immigration is in order. I was under the impression that if her father was not a citizen at the time of her birth, then she couldn't get it. But if he becomes a citizen retro actively, then it could be possible. We were always answering the question about her parents being Canadian at the time of her birth with 'No', so we got a negative answer. So basically if you are born before 2009 (which is most people) you could go back multiple generations, as long as you have the birth records and are alive?  

Thanks for the info, we will seriously look into this. You wouldn't happen to know if you an apply for all these citizneships simultaneously, or would her father have to apply first and then her?
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