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Residency Obligation

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off2canada View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote off2canada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2010 at 9:51am

Well, the replies here don't make my life easier anymore, at the moment I am trying to enter Canada before 1 July say by 22nd June and then stay there for couple of weeks before I come back to my home country for about a week to wind up the things,this way on my re-entry I won't have any issues at POE since I would be out for less than 1095,do u think when I come back after a week will there be any issues???

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote off2canada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2010 at 1:14pm
Also would like to know how can I prove my physical presence in Canada,immediately on re-entry besides my passport as I intend to enter by road (car) and I understand that normally they don't stamp the PP at POE,pls suggest???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2010 at 2:13pm
The odds of being examined for meeting the residency requirement this summer, given a PR card still valid into 2011, is slight -- but especially so if you are entering by car. Really slight. So slight it really is not worth worrying much about.

If, per chance, they did ask questions related to meeting the residency requirement, personally I'd be inclined to be "surprised" (and, honestly, I would be! very surprised) and say something to the effect (again, if by remote chance it was to come up) that you are pretty sure you have met the requirement but will have to get your records to reconstruct actual documentation . . . with as much time left as you have, you would have to have said something or have something else pop up on your record to induce a CBSA officer to take the time to do a residency inadmissibility report, and that something would probably have to be pretty substantial. (If you are actually outside meeting the residency requirement, it is probably of little comfort to know that they must allow you entry anyway . . . since an appeal will only delay the end result unless you can come up with a convincing H&C argument . . . but again, the odds of having this happen with well over a year of validity left on your PR card is remote.)

Do not delay of course.

It sounds like you live in the States -- if you are an American, and will be crossing by car, that reduces the odds of a residency inquiry even more. One slight caveat: if it is obvious that you are "moving" to Canada, you might want to not do it that way the first time you cross, but wait until the second trip to be visibly "moving" . . . when the likely question might be along the lines "when were you last in Canada?" and you can say "ten days ago" (or so).

Edited by dpenabill - 03 Jun 2010 at 2:16pm
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IslandGirl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2010 at 2:10am
There are lots of ways to prove you were in Canada.
They may not stamp your passport, but I can almost guarantee you it was swiped

Originally posted by off2canada off2canada wrote:

Also would like to know how can I prove my physical presence in Canada,immediately on re-entry besides my passport as I intend to enter by road (car) and I understand that normally they don't stamp the PP at POE,pls suggest???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2010 at 3:29am
My passport has not been swiped once entering Canada since I became a PR . . . all trips (have to look at my log to count them . . . half dozen or so) were land crossing via the States though. My passport was always swiped going into the States, but again, not once yet coming in.

But yes, there are many ways to document actual presence in Canada.

And many ways for CBSA or CIC to identify absences from Canada . . . or at least raise inferences of probable presence, probable absence.

Off2Canada's dilemma, though, is being on the margin with not much time in Canada at all, and the equation will not change again until acquiring 730 days within five years, and then only by the number of days he staying in Canada in excess of 730 days. Thus, while entitled to enter Canada, technically a residency breach inadmissibility report followed by a removal order could be given, and if given, the long run outcome is probable enforcement of the removal order and the time spent in Canada during the appeal process would not count toward residency . . . the goods news, again, is that it is extremely unlikely that is going to happen if entry is made this summer, not with as much time left on the PR card as off2canada has.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IslandGirl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2010 at 4:29am
If I were a betting woman, I'd be betting that Canada knows when your passport was swiped going into the States, which means - if you were in the States, you weren't in Canada.
....yes, I know - you can just "say" you were there for the day and in reality be gone for 6 months - I'm not sure I would risk that.

Even ages ago when I would drive across, and they would ask when the last time I was in Canada - if I forgot about a trip - sometimes they would remind me - they knew I'd been there.

I think we can all agree that the US & Canada share information and a fair bit of it, what we don't know is exactly "what", and even what they are sharing today - could change tomorrow.

Sorry - I just get annoyed as hell when I read through forums (esp about citizenship, but also about faking residency for PR) and people are pretty well just discussing ways to scam the system.

Ditto for reading through cases on CanLii about the same things.
Some people seem to want all of the benefits of living in Canada with none of the work & responsibilities. They rent a cheap apartment, get utilities, etc in their name - and then have a friend live there & pay the bills. They stay long enough to get their SIN, PR & health card and then they bugger off to "home", only returning when they need or want something from Canada, while not paying any taxes or contributing to the economy.

Carp like that just p!sses me right the he!! off, especially since many of us are "not" scammers and really do want to live in Canada.

I wonder sometimes if anybody remembers the words of JFK, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" (that's not verbatim, but it's close - I wasn't born yet when he said it) - but that's what I think of every time I read about someone wanting to know what Canada is going to do for them and that's all they care about. Someone's tax dollars are paying that CCTB & UCTB, medical, etc - and if you're not here working, adding to the economy - then you're a drain.

I'm not talking people who are unable to work - I'm talking people who work "back home" or abroad in general who prefer it because they aren't paying taxes - but they make damn sure they get whatever money and services they feel Canada "owes" them.

Sorry - off on a rant, I'm tired, it's getting late & I went waaaayyyy off topic here.

I realize that is not what the OP was asking about, nor is it his/her intent.
I do stick by what I said before though - if you hurry up & get here - I'd almost with 99.9% certainly promise you that there would be no issues at the POE.

Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:

My passport has not been swiped once entering Canada since I became a PR . . . all trips (have to look at my log to count them . . . half dozen or so) were land crossing via the States though. My passport was always swiped going into the States, but again, not once yet coming in.

But yes, there are many ways to document actual presence in Canada.

And many ways for CBSA or CIC to identify absences from Canada . . . or at least raise inferences of probable presence, probable absence.

Off2Canada's dilemma, though, is being on the margin with not much time in Canada at all, and the equation will not change again until acquiring 730 days within five years, and then only by the number of days he staying in Canada in excess of 730 days. Thus, while entitled to enter Canada, technically a residency breach inadmissibility report followed by a removal order could be given, and if given, the long run outcome is probable enforcement of the removal order and the time spent in Canada during the appeal process would not count toward residency . . . the goods news, again, is that it is extremely unlikely that is going to happen if entry is made this summer, not with as much time left on the PR card as off2canada has.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2010 at 2:59pm
It appears obvious that a great deal of info is shared between Canada and the U.S., far more than they let on, but I doubt that what pops up on the CBSA officer's monitor at the Canada PIL, based only on the license plate of the car (since at that point they have not scanned a passport) results in a display of any American data. And even if one is referred inside to secondary, I don't think, at that stage, even with one's ID (usually passport) scanned into the system, it displays U.S. information other than security related stuff . . . TECS/NCIC criminal record and such.

What they could see if they made specific, additional queries into their databases and shared info databases I do not know.

In the not too distant past: I was a flagpole sort for many years; I never overstayed, but spent way more time on the Canadian side than I did at "home" (as in more months a year total in Canada than in the U.S.) -- I had a secondary, recreational residence I rented in Canada for nearly 8 years -- all prior to my wife and I deciding to settle on one side of the border (the better side eh), and I spent quite a bit of time in secondary over the years. While it was obvious to them that I was spending a large portion of the year in Canada (and I was indeed often reporting, at the PIL, that I planned to stay several months, depending of course on my actual plans as in sometimes I really did plan to stay just a day or weeks), if they had a record of all my exits from Canada into the States (and I was almost always traveling by car, a car registered to me -- and they do scan the license plates almost always going both ways) they would have put the hammer down on me a long time ago (they came close a few times over the years, issuing me short term visitor records and giving me strenuous admonitions about how much time I was spending on the Canadian side of the border).

Of course things have continued to change at the border, the level of scrutiny is way up and going up, up, up. We are planning a holiday soon for the Eastern end of Lake Ontario, spending some time in the 1000 Islands area, and in assessing possible boat tours, we noticed that the Canadian companies have had to significantly change their procedures and schedules to accommodate the increased immigration scrutiny for tours that include any U.S. stops (such as Clayton, NY, or Boldt Castle). One can assume that the increasing scrutiny and enhanced technology (been about two years now since the big upgrades done on both side of the border) does include more exchange/sharing of information between the U.S. and Canada -- but again, I very much doubt that a Canadian PIL officer sees U.S. entry info, at least not routinely.

As far as those who "land" as a PR but who delay their actual move to Canada for a time, well that is part of how the system works and in large part this is deliberate -- the government recognizes that many people who intend to immigrate into Canada permanently cannot necessarily just wrap up all their affairs in their home country to permanently relocate in Canada upon receiving a PR visa which may be valid for only a few months. A new PR is, quite literally, given up to three years before having to settle in Canada. Off2canada, for example, just cut this a little too close for comfort . . . although, again, I think off2canada will be fine making the move this year with nearly enough time left to meet the 730 day requirement (and unlike the 1095 days "residing" requirement for citizenship, actually the 730 day residency obligation for PRs is relatively soft, meaning that it is not a hard and fast number and even POE officers have full discretion to allow a PR into Canada, without issuing a report for breach of the requirement, even though technically the PR does not meet the 730 days threshold).

There is, of course, a fair bit of scamming going on, and that is in large part what makes it so difficult for everyone else, but I don't see a new PR's delayed real move to Canada as part of that problem.
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote off2canada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2010 at 1:33pm
Thanks everyone for their valuable feedback,lately I have been keeping very busy,trying to wind up things in my home country so that I can enter Canada asap before 1st July,shall keep in touch with the forum as and when I get time,once again everyone's effort much appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote off2canada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2010 at 5:01am
Hello folks, I am back on the forum but now I have a new query.It is taking a bit too long to wind up my job and other stuff in my home country, as mentioned in my previous posts I had last left Canada on 1st July 2007 and this year on 1st July I will be out of Canada for 1095 days and can have issues at POE,as things stand today I don't forsee myself entering Canada(for good) in next few weeks.Do you think to beat the 1095 days deadline,is it a good idea that I come to Canada before 1st July,stay there for couple of weeks and then come back to my home country to finish off my work here and then return to Canada for good,pls advise any problems/issues which can crop up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2010 at 4:45am
The margins here are incremental and the probabilities laden with many possibilities depending on many, many factors, some you have control over, many you do not (demeanor of CBSA officer at POE for example). One might easily say "yes" that should better the odds . . . but . . . well, simply, there are too many variables to say such a thing with any degree of confidence.

You have pushed the envelope. The odds are probably still in your favor, but certainly no sure bet.
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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