Post Test RQ receipients ONLY ( Since 2009)

When crossing by land, in a PERSONAL vehicle, the landing document is enough to return to Canada.

sparkle wrote: One more question – my PR card is expiring at the end of Nov 2013, and I am hoping to visit USA by car (my family member is driving), perhaps for a week in December. (I will be busy until early Dec.)   My understanding is that as long as I am going by car I just need the landing paper to return to Canada. Would I face extra questions at the border just because my PR card is expired? I am hoping I will get citizenship soon so I am not planning to renew my PR card, but some citizenship applicants seem to have received letters encouraging to renew their PR card . . .

There is another conference here for PR questions in particular. However, the subject of our discussions tend to wander rather widely in many topics, so no big deal.

The best practice, of course, is to have and present a currently valid PR card upon (1) attempting to board commercial transportation destined for Canada, and (2) upon seeking actual entry into Canada at a Canadian POE (be that an airport or land crossing POE).

But the real issue has to do with boarding commercial transportation, for which the carrier is obligated to check the status of all passengers regarding authorization to enter Canada.

Technically a PR seeking entry into Canada is entitled to entry so long as the individual establishes his or her identity and status.

Thus, beyond and apart from what may be required of a person boarding commerical transportation, a PR must generally be allowed to enter Canada (with some exceptions for security/serious criminality inadmissibility, subject to due process requirements), so all a returning PR needs to do practically is establish identity at the POE (identity inherently, ordinarily, includes establishing status as a PR).

Establishing identity is easier for some than it is for others. Just the age of one's passport can affect this.

In any event, the technical requirement of showing status is what underlies the suggestion above that the landing document is enough to facilitate a return to Canada by a private means of transportation. For many, not even this is really necessary, the individual's passport should suffice. Again, the question is more about identity, and again, for many if not most this is readily confirmed by CBSA at a POE, upon examination of the individual's passport, but for some there may be a more thorough examination conducted to confirm identity (which again will in turn effectively confirm PR status).



Will an expired PR card raise concerns at the POE?
This is one of those typical, IT DEPENDS questions.

The failure to present a PR card, or presenting an expired PR card, may indeed be enough for the PIL officer to look more closely at the individual's information and, thus, to make a referral to secondary. If, for example, there is any reservations about identity, that will trigger further examination in secondary. If, for example, there are indications the individual has been outside Canada more than suggested, or that the individual's answers to questions need further clarification or exploration, that will trigger elevated scrutiny.

My sense is that the PIL officer (the one in the booth) has access to information regarding previous entries into Canada, including in particular entries via that same POE location. If that officer looks at such information and at the passport, and is comfortable the PR is who he says he is, who the passport shows him to be, many times that will result in being waived through notwithstanding the failure to have a currently valid PR card.

Note: if PR card is expired, probably best to still present it -- I suppose technically it could be confiscated by CBSA, since it belongs to the government not the individual, and it is no longer valid, so cannot be used and thus should be confiscated. If so, shrug, it does belong to the government and it is expired. My sense is it is better to present the expired card, acknowledging that it is expired, and surrendering it if that is what they request (reports from others tend to indicate their expired card was not confiscated, but these reports are few and somewhat unclear).

If the expired PR card has already been surrendered (for example one sent in with an application for a new card), present passport and explain, if in context it is appropriate (actual questions at the PIL booth tend to vary considerably) to explain, that the card expired, was sent in with an application to renew, and that you are applying for citizenship (PIL officer probably knows all these things from what is on his monitor, unless of course this or that application was so recent as to not be visible on the officer's system).

Of course, having and presenting the landing document is probably good insurance for some, since, again, how much scrutiny one encounters at a POE will vary considerably from one person to the next. (I would not, as I keep mine in a secure location; I might carry a copy but probably would not bother.)

Obviously: for anyone having circumstances tending to raise residency questions, sure, attempting to re-enter Canada without a valid PR card in possession is likely to elevate the scrutiny. This would particularly apply to someone who is not readily recognized as maintaining a residence in Canada. While the particular questions asked at the POE vary considerably, "where do you live?" is almost always asked, and of course there is probably a last known address (or at least city) indicated on the monitor for the individual, and if there is some incongruity apparent to the officer, that will invite more questions, which in turn, depending on how that goes, may trigger a visit to secondary, or if already in secondary, further more probing questions. No great intellectual effort is required to apprehend the range of what is likely to trigger further scrutiny at the border.


". . . hoping to get citizenship soon . . . "
There are no reliable estimates about how long it will be, let alone guarantees. For most PRs applying for citizenship and whose PR card will be expiring in the near future, probably a good idea to renew unless the PR knows for sure a PR card will not be needed for travel, to show a bank or to provincial health care officers (such as to renew a health care card), or such. PRs do not need a currently valid PR card except for such limited purposes, which for many are not things which will arise in the next year or two. (Need for travel is the usual factor compelling PRs to obtain a new PR card.)

I plan to renew mine even though I really cannot foresee any particular need to have a currently valid one. (I prefer to have a current one for when I travel to the U.S., as I do several times a year, but I could travel as easily, I am confident, without it.)

Reminder: any and all information submitted in the application for a new PR card will most likely be compared to all information in the individual's application for citizenship. Any inconsistencies are likely cause problems.

sparkle wrote: In my case, my family member will be driving in his own car, so expired PR card, original landing paper, and passport from my home country should work.   I once called the CIC about this and they said original landing paper would work in my case. I was hoping to hear from someone who actually experienced coming back from US by car with landing paper without PR card … if he faced extra questions, etc. … I may search the PR section of the forum.

Among participants here who have reported making a land crossing without a valid PR card there are posts by jogruni in both this conference (citizenship) and in the conference "Preserving Permanent Residence Status," who has not participated here for more than six months now and not much this year overall. And, as I noted, those reported experiences are not all that clear. Moreover, jogruni carried a passport from a visa-exempt country, which will definitely make a difference, at the least in terms of being able to board commercial transportation, but most likely generally (that is, including land crossings in private transportation).

While there are quite a few reports and discussions in the "Preserving Permanent Residence Status" topics (going back a year and longer) regarding PR cards and traveling by air (commercial transportation), and related experiences such as applying for a PR TD from abroad, again there are not a lot of reports about the specific experience of entering Canada without a PR card or with an expired PR card, and to the extent there are such reports they are, again, not particularly clear, and some are not particularly reliable. (You will see my posts appearing as pervasively there as in the citizenship conference, going back four years now, and they go back further but prior to November 2009 the posts are in the previous rendition of this forum. In any event, I have read probably every report of this sort made in the forum, and responded to a great many of them as well.)

Other caveats:

-- There are many things which may trigger more than the routine questions for anyone at the POE seeking to enter Canada, citizens of Canada even, and details like not having one's PR card (or having an expired PR card) are definitely something that has triggered more questions for some PRs returning to Canada.

-- There are few definitive indicators for confirming the credibility of anecdotal experiences reported in forums like this; always be wary.

-- Moreover, there are many, many factors which can affect how things go for one person versus another; several dozen (let alone just a few) anecdotal experiences cannot be relied upon to affirmatively forecast how it will go for any particular individual; to the extent one discerns the anecdotal reports to be accurate, at best they illustrate the range of what may happen.

-- Thirdly, the border-crossing experience has been changing dramatically, evolving over the course of the last decade or so, generally trending toward more scrutiny, more checks (many of which the individual crossing is unaware of, given the extensive expansion of electronic information readily accessed by POE officers), so anecdotal reports from a year ago, let alone longer, are not entirely reliable indicators of what happens at the POE now, let alone going forward.

By the way, there is a reality-TV series which is called "Border Security" and which consists of a documentary style filming of CBSA border security interactions with people coming into Canada. Real people, real events. Most of what is depicted is about customs (undeclared items, contraband, and so on) but a lot is about other issues, including status (one recently depicted a more thorough examination for a PR returning after an extended stay abroad). Of course it is edited material, and it does not ordinarily include the PIL encounter, just what happens in secondary, and all but a very few espisodes which I have seen are based in the Vancouver airport POE or a Washington State/B.C. land crossing POE. Nonetheless, for those who are obsessed with these sorts of matters, like me, it is an interesting and informative, if not somewhat voyeuristic view of the range of inquiries and interactions which take place between the POE officers and persons coming into Canada (which range from people with all sorts of visas to PRs and Canadian ciitzens). For me, the series has affirmed a lot of what I had discerned based on my own experiences (at one time in my life I was being referred to secondary at the border a lot, and even back then, many years ago, I tended to eavesdrop on what was happening to others also in secondary) plus being active at this and other similar forums for many years.



Bottom-line:
For entering Canada by land from the U.S., a PR's currently valid passport should easily suffice for purposes of obtaining entry, notwithstanding no PR card.

But the range of questions that will be asked can vary considerably from person to person, with or without a valid PR card, and the lack of a currently valid PR card can easily be something which triggers more than the routine questions. To what extent this is likely to happen, to what extent additional questions might be probed, will depend on the particular individual, on the answers given to the routine questions, on the individual's history, even on the circumstances attendant the particular trip itself. This is not in the realm of one-size-fits-all, not by a long shot.

In particular, without a valid PR card there are probably high odds of some additional questions being asked, that is questions beyond the routine. The routine questions vary, but generally include some of the following:
-- where do you live? (almost always asked)
-- how long outside Canada?
-- what was the purpose of your trip?
-- where did you stay?
-- what is the dollar value of everything you are bringing back?
-- what are you bringing into Canada?
-- any alcohol, tobacco, weapons?
-- what do you do (meaning what is your work/employment)?
As few as two or three of these might be asked. Sometimes these are directed primarily to the driver of a private vehicle. Again, how this goes for any particular individual, in any particular border crossing, varies extensively, and it is nearly impossible to predict whether it will be just a few of the routine questions or whether the questioning will be more extensive.

I suppose the biggest question one might have is what are the odds that not having the PR card in possession (or having an expired PR card) will trigger a referral to secondary, where the questioning is typically significantly more thorough (and a RCMP and NCIC records check is done, perhaps a more thorough look at GCMS and FOSS as well). I referred to reported experiences by jogruni above, and as I recall those did involve a referral to secondary . . . but they also involved customs questions related to items being brought into Canada, so here again it is impossible to infer what that suggests for someone else who is not presenting a currently valid PR card. Was it the sinks, toilets, and other plumbing materials (which could be purchased in the U.S. for far less) that triggered the referral to secondary, or would the lack of a currently valid PR card alone have triggered the referral to secondary anyway?

Overall, I would expect some questions beyond the routine questions, but whether or not a trip to secondary and more thorough scrutiny is likely, that is hard to guess, and again I think it depends on the individual, the circumstances, the individual's history, and so on.

Justice4B wrote: Attn: greeny I have sent you a private message today.