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Will CIC renew my PR card?

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tom94063 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 4:46am

I landed in Apr 2nd, 2010, stayed 2 wks then left Canada and never came back again. I got PR card that will expire May 12th, 2015.  Now I plan to arrive in Canada exactly on May 10th 2013 and will stay in Canada as long as it needs (2-3 yrs).  I wish I could I arrive sooner if I hadn't had my tooth problem (hope to clear it before I leave my home country. So 2 days of margin here!!! 
Then on May 10th, 2015 when I fulfil residency obligation (730 days), I will send out application to renew my PR to CIC exactly on May 10,2015. The thing is  that my PR card will already expire by the time CIC receives my application, (let say May 14th).


1.As far as I know, I must be a PR so as to be eligible for the PR card.  But I will no longer be PR at the time CIC receives my app on let say, May 14th 2015 as my PR card expires on May 12th 2015.  Will CIC renew my PR?

According to page 7 of op10, (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/op/op10-eng.pdf)
it says "for the purposes of determining the date of the examination of residency status, a visa officer shall use the date that an application is officially received in the visa office.  This really worries me. If CIC really examines me on the date CIC receives my app, then I will no longer be a PR on that day and won't be eligible for new PR card.

But if CIC examines me on my last day of PR card (May 12th 2015), I will be fine , (730 days fulfilled and still a PR)

2.I cannot send out application to CIC to renew PR card before I fulfil 730 days residency obligation, can I? Or pls suggest what to do?


3.This is worst case scenario. If I arrive in Canada later than May 12th,2015 due to ongoing dental problem, meaning I won't be able to complete 730 days by the time the PR expires, can I use my dental problem as a reason for not fulfilling 730 days obligation and renew the PR? And how to?
 
Thanks
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dpenabill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 1:53pm

Originally posted by tom94063 tom94063 wrote:

I landed in Apr 2nd, 2010, stayed 2 wks then left Canada and never came back again. I got PR card that will expire May 12th, 2015.

This is your real problem. Your are currently in breach of the PR residency obligation. You may be issued a removal order upon your next arrival in Canada. More below.

No, you will not be arriving with a two day margin. You are now in breach. The obligation is based on date of landing. The PR card dates are mostly irrelevant. Except that having a PR card valid for two more years may be a big help in being allowed to enter Canada without being issued a removal order. Again, more below.

Originally posted by tom94063 tom94063 wrote:

But I will no longer be PR at the time CIC receives my app on let say, May 14th 2015 as my PR card expires on May 12th 2015.

PR status does not expire. The PR card expires. A PR card is more like a passport (when a passport expires it has no effect on status of citizenship) than it is a drivers license (the expiry of which terminates status to drive).

Generally, the validity date of the PR card does not directly affect PR status. Indeed, as I said, you are already in breach of the residency obligation, subject to be issued a removal order which will terminate your status as a PR if and when it becomes enforceable (which is subject to time it takes for an appeal, if an appeal is made), and the fact that your PR card is still valid for two more years does not affect this.

Originally posted by tom94063 tom94063 wrote:

2.I cannot send out application to CIC to renew PR card before I fulfil 730 days residency obligation, can I? Or pls suggest what to do?

Do not submit application to renew PR card until you have been present in Canada 730 days within the previous five years (of the day you submit the application); if you submit an application to renew your PR card prior to being in compliance with the PR residency obligation it will most likely be denied (some exceptions but not worth going into at this point).

If, when you next arrive in Canada, you are allowed to enter Canada without being issued a removal order, you are good to stay, your PR status will continue. You could stay in Canada five years without renewing the PR card and your status will continue to be a PR. But, yes, stay 730 days and then apply to renew.

Originally posted by tom94063 tom94063 wrote:

3.This is worst case scenario. If I arrive in Canada later than May 12th,2015 due to ongoing dental problem, meaning I won't be able to complete 730 days by the time the PR expires, can I use my dental problem as a reason for not fulfilling 730 days obligation and renew the PR? And how to?

Back to what I said was the real problem. Again, the dates on the PR card are not relevant to an assessment of residency for purposes of the PR residency obligation.

A new PR has five years from the date of landing to meet the initial 730 days presence in Canada PR residency obligation. You missed that already. If you arrived in Canada tomorrow, May 1, 2013, you will have already been absent from Canada more than 1095 days since you landed on April 2, 2010 (other way of stating the PR residency obligation is that a PR cannot be absent more than 1095 days within any five year time frame, or since landing for PR still in first five years of PR status -- this is simple arithmetic, absence more than 1095 days in a five year time frame means the PR cannot be present for at least 730 days in that five year time frame).

You will be close, within around two weeks (assuming you were actually in Canada 14 days initially), and at least in the past, as I understood things, the POE officers were often fairly lenient with PRs in similar circumstances.

If you arrive May 10, that's a bit over three weeks short. The longer it goes, the less likely the POE officers will be lenient. There is no guarantee that they will be lenient at all. I have no idea what the odds really are at this point. I think the odds depend a great deal on the individual, their impression of the individual, and a wide range of factors.

Be ready to make the H&C argument upon arrival, including having documents showing your medical condition and why it precluded returning to Canada sooner, and being prepared to persuade POE officers you intended to return to Canada sooner, and you intended to come to Canada to make it your permanent home.

While medical issues are factors, of course how much influence they have depends on what those conditions are and of course what proof the individual has regarding the condition and how it affected returning to Canada sooner.

In any event, if you are serious about returning to Canada to settle in Canada, put together a good argument that you intended to return sooner, were precluded from returning due to dental problem, and some concrete plans for your future life in Canada, and be prepared to make as good an impression upon arrival at the POE in Canada as possible. Have all papers you will want to show in your hands, in your carry-on, not in checked baggage. (There is usually no opportunity to retrieve checked bags prior to any interview you have with POE officers upon arrival.)



Note: The operational manual you refer to is for visa office assessment of residency where a PR abroad has applied for a PR Travel Document, to facilitate a return to Canada for a PR who does not have a valid PR card in possession. You probably want to look at the operational manuals for enforcement, especially ENF 23 Loss of Permanent Resident Status which is found here: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/enf/enf23-eng.pdf

In particular, see section 7.7 on page 19 regarding Humanitarian and compassionate (H&C) determinations.

You may also find ENF 4, regarding POE examinations, to be informative, as well as ENF 5 and ENF 6 regarding the report which leads to the issuance of a removal order.





Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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MajidS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MajidS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by tom94063 tom94063 wrote:

I landed in Apr 2nd, 2010, stayed 2 wks then left Canada and never came back again.

 
That's your problem, right there. Nothing else matters. The validity of a PR card has no relevance to your PR status. Think of it this way, if for some reason, your home country revoked your nationality, the fact that you still have a valid passport is irrelevant. PR status and PR ID card validity are not related.
 
PR status is tested on a different criteria. Right now, you have already failed to meet that criteria. You need to worry about a compelling story for not living in Canada for the last 3 years that you would need to convince CIC not to follow through with a removal order next time you try to enter Canada.


Edited by MajidS - 30 Apr 2013 at 3:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom94063 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2013 at 5:41am
Thanks, especially dpenabill for very very helpful advice.Smile  It's sad but it's fact. (Good thing is that I haven't quit my current job.) So I have to prepare H&C argument and document next time I enter Canada and pray that the officer will be lenient on me.   
1. Is there any format for medical certificate that I should ask my dentist/endodontist to write? Does it need to be certified by authority?
2. If I am allowed to enter without removal order or so(hopefully), and stay 730 days straight, then renew PR., will CIC look back and find out that I already failed to comply with residency obligation since I entered Canada last time? Or they are only interested to see if I fulfil 730 days?
3. As I read other threads (with different scenario where PR has already expired), someone suggests to apply for business visa to enter Canada and stay 730 days straight then renew PR. Will this work or will it create more mess since I overstay business visa and the issue will pop up when renewing the PR card?  
Thanks again for your patience.
 
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dpenabill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2013 at 2:33pm

Originally posted by tom94063 tom94063 wrote:

1. Is there any format for medical certificate that I should ask my dentist/endodontist to write? Does it need to be certified by authority?
I do not know. I doubt it. Letter clearly stating the dentist's professional status, who you are, what the condition is, and that it required treatment prior to traveling is about as well as you can do. There are no guarantees this makes the difference.


Originally posted by tom94063 tom94063 wrote:

2. If I am allowed to enter without removal order or so(hopefully), and stay 730 days straight, then renew PR., will CIC look back and find out that I already failed to comply with residency obligation since I entered Canada last time? Or they are only interested to see if I fulfil 730 days?
Past breaches of the residency obligation have little or no effect on a PR once the PR is in compliance. Once in compliance the breach is fully cured. Past breaches might be considered in terms of PR's pattern if the PR is again in breach and making a H&C case, but even then how it would go on that occasion would depend far more on extent of present breach with consideration given to present H&C factors. Down the road, if the PR applies for citizenship, the previous address history may elevate the level of scrutiny some, but again that would be a relatively minor factor, not a direct factor at all, just something to consider in the overall picture of the PR.


Originally posted by tom94063 tom94063 wrote:

3. As I read other threads (with different scenario where PR has already expired), someone suggests to apply for business visa to enter Canada and stay 730 days straight then renew PR. Will this work or will it create more mess since I overstay business visa and the issue will pop up when renewing the PR card?
There are various schemes PRs attempt to employ in essentially sneaking back into Canada without being issued a Removal Order, for the obvious reason that once in Canada the PR can simply stay, avoid contact with CIC or CBSA (by not leaving Canada, not applying to sponsor someone, not applying for a new PR card, and so on) until they have been in Canada for 730 days, which then totally cures the breach. I have no idea what odds of success there are. I do know the consequences for getting caught. No chance of H&C factors helping much in that scenario. Whatever the odds used to be, however, they are rapidly getting smaller and smaller as the technology and screening allow CBSA and CIC to catch more and more fraud.

Make no mistake: a PR is not a Foreign National. To apply for some temporary status to enter Canada (visitor, student, worker), you must be a Foreign National. It would be outright fraud to make misrepresentations of this sort. Get caught, even if you do not go to jail for awhile you can then scratch Canada off your destinations list.



Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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tom94063 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom94063 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2013 at 12:39am
dpenabill, thanks again.Smile
 
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