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Understanding ATIP reports
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canuck25 View Drop Down
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Points: 831 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck25 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2013 at 7:05pm
Just came home to find a CD from CIC in my mailbox with the requested GCMS notes and copies of all physical and electronic files. Despite my filing the request via a Privacy Act form and specifically requesting information pertaining to the reason I was issued an RQ, the criteria used to evaluate my application, and the file requirements checklist, none of those were included. The crucial 4 pages of my file which I think have the insight "are withheld pursuant to section 22(1)(b) of the privacy act". 

I am just wondering which of the following such a disclosure would really fall under:

22. (1) The head of a government institution may refuse to disclose any personal information requested under subsection 12(1)

  • (b) the disclosure of which could reasonably be expected to be injurious to the enforcement of any law of Canada or a province or the conduct of lawful investigations, including, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, any such information

    • (i) relating to the existence or nature of a particular investigation,

    • (ii) that would reveal the identity of a confidential source of information, or

    • (iii) that was obtained or prepared in the course of an investigation; or

I am curious if there's anything that can be done and how another forum participant who obtained this information on his file a couple of months back actually did it. 

I realize that KNOWING that information won't make any difference at all, but it would still be something new in the process that is dragging on much longer than it should. I think for me - no more ATIP requests and no more calls to the CIC. I am content to just sit and wait since clearly there is no way to speed up the system or glean further insights.


Edited by canuck25 - 01 May 2013 at 7:10pm
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dpenabill View Drop Down
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Points: 6407 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2013 at 8:35pm
You can easily file a complaint with the office of the Information Commissioner of Canada.

See this web page for information about lodging a complaint. It states there:
Quote Anyone who feels that an information request was not properly handled by a federal institution may ask the OIC to investigate the issue. Typical reasons for making complaints include processing delays, denial of information, fees required, and official language concerns.


It also states:
Quote Your complaint will be acknowledged and you will be given the assigned investigator's name. He or she may ask you questions and will give you the opportunity to present your point of view. The investigator will also obtain information from the institution and will try to mediate a resolution of your complaint.

Many complaints are settled by clearing up misinterpretations or errors. Bear in mind, however, that the Commissioner may conclude that the institution acted properly.

Before making a finding, the Commissioner considers the results of the investigation, your arguments, as well as those of the government institution and any third party affected by disclosure of the information. The finding is then reported directly to you.


At some point, applicants should be entitled to everything that is given to the Citizenship Judge to consider. Timing is the critical difficulty there.
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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canuck25 View Drop Down
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Points: 831 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck25 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2013 at 8:38pm
@dpenabill - thanks! Will follow through on this. 

I think the issue of having access to exactly the same information as what the judge and CO see, is crucial and just. If this were a trial, the discovery phase would've taken care of this.
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akella View Drop Down
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Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:

You can easily file a complaint with the office of the Information Commissioner of Canada.
...
Many complaints are settled by clearing up misinterpretations or errors. Bear in mind, however, that the Commissioner may conclude that the institution acted properly.
....
Timing is the critical difficulty there.


I tried that route to fight exclusions from OB407 (checklist, file analysis templates, etc.)
Complaint filed in October 2012. Resolved in April 2013 (6 months from start to finish). Did not result in anything new - investigator sided with the Ministry on how they apply exemptions. They released an updated version to me, which only included one new element - section headings (which we already knew from mcm's post last year).
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dpenabill View Drop Down
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Not sure, but I tend to think there should be some difference between what information the public is entitled to access, versus a complaint regarding excluded information in a request for personal information.

And this is also where the timing issue looms large. Until the file is actually handed off to the Citizenship Judge, it is in internal processing, so those policies which allow CIC to withhold certain information still apply to a certain extent. Once the file is handed off to the CJ, the applicant should be entitled to examine all that (everything given to the CJ) in its entirety. But this does not happen until either the file is handed to the CJ for a file review, in which case that is probably done at the same time the oath is being scheduled, or until it is referred to the CJ for a hearing, and again this is probably the same time the hearing is being scheduled. If for a file review, and oath, who is interested in spending time making an ATIP request, potentially risking another element factoring into things? (I would not be.) If scheduled for the hearing, probably no time to actually obtain the response to the ATIP request before the hearing and who will want to delay their hearing. I would, if in that scenario, but I can see that at that stage most want to plow ahead and get it done and not get bogged down in wrangling with bureaucratic obstructions into accessing information.



Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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canuck25 View Drop Down
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Points: 831 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck25 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2013 at 8:58pm
@dpenabill If for a file review, and oath, who is interested in spending time making an ATIP request, potentially risking another element factoring into things? (I would not be.)

Can you please clarify this statement? Are you suggesting that simply requesting a copy of the file via ATIP request while the file is in process raises red flags for the CIC, or are you using "risking another element" to illustrate the potential delay the ATIP request can have on the file moving on to the next stage?
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dpenabill View Drop Down
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Originally posted by canuck25 canuck25 wrote:


Quote If for a file review, and oath, who is interested in spending time making an ATIP request, potentially risking another element factoring into things? (I would not be.)

Can you please clarify this statement? Are you suggesting that simply requesting a copy of the file via ATIP request while the file is in process raises red flags for the CIC, or are you using "risking another element" to illustrate the potential delay the ATIP request can have on the file moving on to the next stage?

Not really suggesting anything. Foremost, I do not really know much at that level about what goes on behind the curtains at CIC. All I really know is that even CIC call centre calls will result in a note to the file, so that means there is some interaction with the file. Odds of that being problematic are probably very, very small. But who knows for sure, given that it will cause an extra set of eyes to take an otherwise extra look at the file, and at that point, to my view, with the oath already scheduled, it is not worth taking even a tiny, tiny risk of tipping things off the rails. It is not so much about how much risk (again, probably very tiny) but that there is no reason to take any unnecessary risk, no matter how small.

My point is simply that there is a very narrow window of time in which an individual has a fair procedure right of access to information being given to the Citizenship Judge, which is a more substantive right than the right to access public information generally, and more substantive than a general personal right to what information a government body has about the person. And given the circumstances attendant that narrow window of opportunity, many if not nearly all are not likely to pursue it . . . but especially not if they get notice to take the oath. (What's the saying? Don't kick a sleeping dog? Something like that.)



Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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Hey Canunk25 & Akella,

Surprisingly for me the location field is totally blank. Only below it the description says a few digits in nos. - tt i.e. XXXXX-tt wherein X stands for some nos.

For me too the notes section has the complete RQ letter as was received by me in the mail & also on the test date.

I guess as akella mentioned they are holding back a lot of information from us in our ATIP requests, I guess because of the fear that it will disclose the shortcomings in their processess. For sure they have no clue why , and to who to give RQ's . They as mentioned in the latest new article, giving RQ's randomly.
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Hi all, I am new to this forum. I completed my RQ (given on the test date) little over a month ago.  When I check my status online, there is no mention of RQ.  I sent my first package with tracking number, but I didn’t do that with my second letter, which completed my RQ submission. 

I plan on skipping asking call centre agents about my file, and request ATIP later on.  

My questions are:

1.     CIC web site – my application status page

a.     Would the site show receipt of a completed RQ? 

b.     Information regarding an invitation to a ceremony:  What is the average time lag for this showing up on the web site?  (My mail does not get delivered to my door, so I don’t normally check mail on a daily basis.)  I heard that the date on the notice to the ceremony date is only about 2 weeks.  What would be the fastest way to find out about the ceremony invite?

2.     ATIP

a.     Would ATIP show my test result?

b.     Would there be any negative consequences to my application if I request ATIP?

c.     How soon after completion of RQ should I request ATIP in my case? 

d.     How soon after completion of RQ would ATIP reveal whether or not one needs to see a judge?

My timeline is

Aug 2011:  citizenship application received by CIC

Dec 2012:  interview / RQ / test at Scarborough

Apr 2013:  completed RQ sent to CIC

*** Kindly advise if I should post my questions on another thread.

Any help would be appreciated.  Thank you.

sparkle
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canuck25 View Drop Down
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Points: 831 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck25 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2013 at 2:17pm
@sparkle
1a - The site does not show receipt of RQ. Since you got your RQ at test time, your latest entry in ecas will be your test invite notification. Untill the RQ is reviewed and a decision is made there will not be any update on your application in ecas.
1b. Typically a few days, though ecas is known to be unreliable.

2a. ATIP does show your test results
2b. No as far as I know
2c. I would recommend waiting for at least 6 months after CIC confirms receipt of your RQ (usually 2 months after you send it). The reason is that it is unlikely there will be any action on your file before 8-9 months after you submitted your RQ.
2d. Same as C, if not later, though my ATIP currently shows no need to see a judge. 
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