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Wannavote2012 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wannavote2012 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by dpenabill dpenabill wrote:


The Commissioner's office does all the real work. If something in government is broken, as so many here are complaining it is, then it is the civic duty of those affected to make a complaint. That is a big part of what citizenship is about: participating fully in the social, cultural, political, economic community. Those who want to be citizens could begin by behaving like citizens.

 
I completely agree with you on the point you made above. I feel this forum is great for venting but most of us have to do more and push for a change of something that is obviously very wrong. Doubt this processing timeline will get better by itself.
 
The reason I had said that I wasn't going to spend time and make a formal complain was that I was thinking CBSA processing won't affect citizenship applicants as it will be done directly by CIC. But thinking about it more, I was wrong and need to complain to the commissioner to force CBSA to provide the report in a timely fashion as I believe citizenship applicants and RQ recipients will need to still ask for the report more than ever before and the reason is this:
 
-I feel all applicants for citizenship and those getting RQ have to absolutely request CBSA travel report first before giving access to CIC and I haven't read anybody here making this point.... My thinking is this, we all know CBSA report is not the most complete one but I think CIC will take it as the ultimate proof of your travels, so the last thing anyone would want is to give access to CIC to a report they have no idea what it includes... It will be great if all your dates match the CBSA report and even you have more self reported travel dates than the report itself. But if by any bad luck you forget one or dates are mismatched, I am almost certain alarm bells will go off at CIC and your file will be much more scrutinized, the last thing anyone who is honest wants is to have CIC thinking you are lying. Yes, you can always later prove it was an honest mistake but think about how much grueling process most of us are going through for no reason except their own paranoid process and imagine now if CIC have "proof" you are lying on your signed application. Having to prove your honesty is more emotional taxing if you are not a fraudster.
 
So please all citizenship applicants request your CBSA report and make sure the dates match and you didn't miss any travel date.... RQ recipients please do the same as you will make sure you are accurate in your reporting. Like I said before, the last thing you want is to give CIC access to a document you absolutely have no idea what it includes. Mistakes do happen and have been reported here many times.


Edited by Wannavote2012 - 12 Nov 2012 at 8:39pm
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EasyRider View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EasyRider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 8:43pm
If there are mistakes in CBSA it's bad. I wonder how one can correct them. I know there's record correction procedure for US CBP, but not sure there's one for CBSA.
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Wannavote2012 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wannavote2012 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2012 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by EasyRider EasyRider wrote:

If there are mistakes in CBSA it's bad. I wonder how one can correct them. I know there's record correction procedure for US CBP, but not sure there's one for CBSA.
 
I was lucky my report was accurate but the good thing about CBSA process is they give you the contact information (Name, direct number and email) of the agent working on your file so I guess you can always call or email and see how you can make corrections.
 
But I agree with you, the reason for requesting it should be to correct the mistakes from both side and make it as accurate as possible. (For ex, read people that crossed the border after midnight because of the long car lineup and they had different dates than the CBSA report, small mistake really but imagine if you thought it was a same day travel and because of that you had to report it on your application as a 1 day and you applied at exactly 1095, nightmare as it will most likely go to a judge hearing)


Edited by Wannavote2012 - 12 Nov 2012 at 8:55pm
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dpenabill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 2:58pm

Quote Wannavote2012:
Quote I feel all applicants for citizenship and those getting RQ have to absolutely request CBSA travel report first before giving access to CIC and I haven't read anybody here making this point.... My thinking is this, we all know CBSA report is not the most complete one but I think CIC will take it as the ultimate proof of your travels, so the last thing anyone would want is to give access to CIC to a report they have no idea what it includes... It will be great if all your dates match the CBSA report and even you have more self reported travel dates than the report itself. But if by any bad luck you forget one or dates are mismatched, I am almost certain alarm bells will go off at CIC and your file will be much more scrutinized, the last thing anyone who is honest wants is to have CIC thinking you are lying. Yes, you can always later prove it was an honest mistake but think about how much grueling process most of us are going through for no reason except their own paranoid process and imagine now if CIC have "proof" you are lying on your signed application. Having to prove your honesty is more emotional taxing if you are not a fraudster.


This is a good observation.

Additionally, when an individual requests the CBSA travel report, they can include their automobile identification so that the report reflects those land entries even if the individual's entry was not recorded. This additional information can help individuals corroborate their own records as to travel outside Canada.

Nonetheless, while I tend to agree that the careful approach would be to request one's CBSA travel history prior to submitting the application for citizenship, for most applicants it is probably unnecessary.

The odds of an error on the side of CBSA are very low since almost all entries are electronic, based on client identification number scanned into the system electronically; some chance of error does exist relative to any manually entered data, but again this would afect a very small percentage of CBSA records overall, and one certainly hopes that those entering such information manually rarely make mistakes, so the rate of incidence of this sort of mistake should be near miniscule (moreover: name and client number would not match, except in the case of an extremely rare coincidence, so such an error should be apparent and not populate the wrong individual's records).

Omissions are far more likely for many reasons. These should not be problematic. And, to be clear, when completing the residency calculation, applicants must report all travel abroad (except day trips . . . albeit this is a bit of a sticky issue in my view, that is, whether or not to declare these as well) even if there is nothing in one's passport (or other travel documents), or the CBSA travel history, reflecting the trip.

As I have been trying to emphasize for a few months now, perhaps the biggest issue that CIC is screening applicants for is discrepancies in the residency calculation declarations, for any indication that the applicant failed to report some absence. The question is to what extent do minor errors matter. There is, I believe, no one-rule, one-approach answer to this. Indeed, I truly believe that CIC is not so draconian, for example, as to impose the more severe approach to assessing an applicant's residency just because the applicant made a minor mistake in the residency calculation.

That is, for example, I doubt that CIC elevates its scrutiny just because an applicant fails to accurately report a trip abroad by a day or two. That said, combine that mistake with other concerns about the residency/travel declarations, sure it then looms larger and fuels questions if not doubt, if not outright skepticism, depending on all the details and how those details fit into the whole picture.

I realize that I am among a small minority here who believes that CIC does not engage in a draconian screening of applicants looking for technicalities and minor mistakes, toward imposing the more severe, and lengthy processing, on otherwise well-qualified applicants. But I do, indeed, truly believe that minor mistakes, or small and otherwise inconsequential inconsistencies, are usually no problem depending, however, on context, on the whole picture, how all the parts fit into the whole.

The day-trip but return to Canada ten minutes after midnight scenario, however, poses a somewhat different problem, because it shows up as an omission (assuming the applicant does not report day trips in the residency calculation), not just an error in reporting the date of return, and while I am not sure that "alarm bells will go off" because just one of these appears in the CBSA travel history, it will draw attention and if it is in conjunction with any other incongruities, inconsistencies, small errors, or such, then sure, it is going to loom larger and could be problematic.

Back to day-trips generally: this seems to be a bit of a trap. Not intentionally so. But there is a problem underlying the attempt to strike a balance between keeping the paperwork within reasonable parameters that will facilitate efficient processing, and requiring declarations of sufficient information to fully assess the extent of an applicant's actual presence in Canada (and thereby their residency). Combine this with the fact that those attempting to game the system had exploited gaps in record-gathering facilitated by traveling via the U.S. Additionally, Canada has been used as a bit of stepping-stone for many whose main ambition was to obtain status in the U.S. Moreover, historically many Canadian PRs have also had status to live and work in the U.S. and because of job opportunities have spent extended periods of time in the U.S. but in their effort to obtain a Canadian passport they failed to accurately disclose their time in the U.S.

So, for some applicants, indications of travel to or through the U.S., can raise questions. And for such applicants, even day trips, or border-crossings claimed to be attendant a day-trip, are sometimes examined with an elevated degree of scrutiny.

Whether or not to declare day-trips despite the fact that it is not required?

This is not an easy question to answer. Again, like so many questions, I doubt there is any one-rule, one-approach that is best for all applicants. Obviously, there is no material misrepresentation by omission in not declaring day trips. There should be no disadvantage arising from following the instructions and not declaring day trips.

But, various reports have indicated that some applicants at least appear to have come under elevated scrutiny, or at least have been challenged about, undeclared day trips. And now the RQ actually requires applicants to report day trips, despite no hint whatsoever prior to this year (and still no notice published for the general public, no notification in the CIC web site in particular, that PRs applying for citizenship might be required to report day trips) that a PR applying for citizenship may be requested to declare all day trips and may be requested to do so clear back to the date they first arrived in Canada no matter how many years ago that was.

For anyone who made just a few day trips to the U.S., and has kept record of them, the answer to this question is easy: sure, go ahead and declare them. This cannot hurt. It should foreclose questions unless there is some other reason for CIC to question the applicant's declarations.

For anyone who, however, has made many day trips to the U.S., the answer is problematic. The residency calculation declaration can get messy enough, and be long enough, without including the declaration of a large number of day trips. The day trips can be a big distraction. Many here tend to agree with me (though many do not as well), that when dealing with CIC (like when dealing with most bureaucracies) it is best to give simple, straight-forward information that is specifically in response to what is requested. More can be distracting. More can result in unwanted attention. More can raise questions that otherwise might not have been raised.

In contrast, though, a lot of day trips increases the risk of questions arising from them, and the questions could arise from declaring them, or from not declaring them.

Then there are those for whome a day trip resulted in a notation/stamp in their passport or other travel documents; I think the answer for such applicants is relatively easy: probably better to declare the trip. That said, here too the number of such trips can loom as an issue. Moreover, what does this applicant do if some day trips resulted in a stamp while there are many others that did not, and overall there were a large number of such trips?

So, this can be a difficult question for some prospective applicants. There is, so far as I can see, no clear answer.

Personally, while the application itself and the residency calculation are already complicated enough for a great many applicants, if CIC provided for declaring day-trips separately that would make sense to me. They do not count as day's absent, so they do not really belong in the residency calculation declarations. They are relevant in some respects, at the least, so such information would be helpful. But, CIC is already embroiled in implementing so many changes that this is not at all likely to be implemented, and it could be confusing to a large number of applicants if they are asked to declare cross-border (international) travel in two separate forms.

Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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dpenabill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 3:34pm

Additional observation regarding delays in CBSA report delivery


I think I noted, previously, that it appeared CBSA had caught up and was timely delivering reports in response to requests (reports in mid-summer suggested they had a backlog of thousands, but then earlier this fall a number of reports indicated timely responses), and then recently there have again been numerous reports of delays (along with some indications that they were behind in responding to hundreds of requests this time, in contrast to thousands this summer).

Speculating some here: I wonder if CIC and CBSA are migrating toward procedures which will encompass CIC obtaining the CBSA travel history for all applicants (who have signed the consent -- rendering, one might guess, those who do not give consent more likely to get RQ). And that this is resulting in changes that have again resulted in delays in responding to personal requests (as opposed to batch requests from CIC).


Observation regarding content of CBSA report

This is largely a heads-up sort of observation. As I previously indicated, I believe that the CBSA travel history report that is sent in response to an individual request is not a copy of an extant report but is rather a generated report, as in a report generated from a particular query, thus, a report based on data populating different fields and meeting prescribed criteria in the database as of the time when that query is run.

It is not a stretch, in my view, to think that CBSA has a variety of possible queries it can run on its databases which will generate a variety of reports. A simple example might be a report including the identification of all recorded entries at a particular POE for a specified time frame.

I wonder if the report that CIC will obtain from CBSA is precisely the same as the one an individual would be given?

I do not know, but I doubt it.

My guess (and it is indeed just a guess) is that what CIC obtains is likely to include more than what an individual obtains. What more might there be? I have not thought it through to that extent. What difference might it make? Probably none for almost all applicants. But, for some, well . . . the possibilities are many.


Near-future CBSA report and U.S. entry records

I have no idea to what extent the initiatives to facilitate more direct sharing of border-crossing data with the U.S. have been implemented as yet. But, there is little doubt, the trend is toward, at the least, CBSA having direct access to U.S. land-border entry data. This will, in effect, give CBSA extensive data regarding exits from Canada.

To what extent this information will be shared with or accessible by other Canadian government entities, agencies, offices, or such, is still very unclear, probably not at all determined as yet.

But, consent to CIC to directly obtain one's CBSA travel history will, going forward, when CBSA has implemented the data sharing procedures with the U.S., probably entail CBSA sending a report to CIC that not only reflects recorded entries into Canada but also recorded entries into the U.S. (thus effectively information as to exits from Canada).

Consent today, be that in the application or in responding to RQ with the most recent form, may thus result in CIC obtaining entry into U.S. information sometime in the near future . . . not sure this will happen, but I think so, and totally unsure of when it will happen but I'd guess soon enough to have an impact on anyone applying for citizenship now and perhaps soon enough to affect those giving consent in RQ forms now.


Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vefabuyuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 4:08pm

Quick question:

I had a day trip to the US, got I-94 which I forgot to return when I crossed back to Canada. I was worried that I had to return the I-94 otherwise it would look like I never left the US therefore, I gave it to a CBSA officer after 2 months during a trip to Niagara Falls. I dont remember the officer punching in my Id number in the system. So my guess is in the CBSA travel history report, it s gonna look like I was in the US till the day (2 months after) I returned the I-94 from the Canadian side of Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Fall.
 
I guess all I can do is to explain it in a letter submitted along with the RQ and provide proof of my presence in Canada during those 2 months.
 
Any suggestions? This is becoming a total nightmare.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akella Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by vefabuyuk vefabuyuk wrote:

Quick question:

I had a day trip to the US, got I-94 which I forgot to return when I crossed back to Canada. I was worried that I had to return the I-94 otherwise it would look like I never left the US therefore, I gave it to a CBSA officer after 2 months during a trip to Niagara Falls. I dont remember the officer punching in my Id number in the system. So my guess is in the CBSA travel history report, it s gonna look like I was in the US till the day (2 months after) I returned the I-94 from the Canadian side of Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Fall.
 
I guess all I can do is to explain it in a letter submitted along with the RQ and provide proof of my presence in Canada during those 2 months.
 
Any suggestions? This is becoming a total nightmare.
 

No, CBSA report shows your actual entries (you used some document to enter the country, right?)
What it can mess up - is USCBPA report, but you shouldn't worry about them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vefabuyuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 5:57pm
I entered with a foreign visa which had aTemporary Resident Visa on it which I m pretty sure wasnt scanned. The officer just looked at it and let me in. Did not enter anything in the computer. That's how it works on the Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls. I walked passed the bridge same way with my PR card after becoming a PR.
 
I assume the report will not show the date I entered Canada then? Also keep in mind that US is or will be, in the near future, sharing this information. I just ope this does not create a problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 7:50pm

I would not assume . . .

Nor would I bother to try second guessing what will show up, when, where, how. Or to try second guessing what impression this or that makes.

How things appear? Generally there should be nothing out of the ordinary in this. I suppose some individuals have particular circumstances which might cast an odd shadow or such, which might lead to an erroneous inference, but overall any such circumstances should not affect things much unless CIC gets the impression that the applicant is misrepresenting the facts. That, then, would be a problem.

Mostly, stick to the facts. Anytime someone is in a position which requires explanation, let alone persausive argument, they are not in a good position. No explanation, let alone argument, is probably going to change a CIC citizenship officer's assessment; thus, if the facts are such that an officer might very well make a negative inference that will send the case to long-haul RQ and ultimately to an actual in-person hearing with a CJ, well, that is most likely where the case is headed. Any explaining, any argument, should probably be reserved and made to the Citizenship Judge in that case.

Note, though, for pre-test RQ, there should be something of an opportunity to explain, perhaps even make an argument (such as to what the truth is versus what someone might erroneously infer) at the interview -- although, if the CIC officer has real questions and has already made a negative inference, such explanation or argument will mostly be for the benefit of the CJ.

Foremost: when applying report all travel abroad and if responding to RQ, likewise declare all travel abroad including day trips.

Stick to the facts.

In the meantime, again, omissions in the govt's records are common, no big deal. Errors, though, are very unlikely.
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toronto333 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2012 at 11:42pm
hi all.
i got CBSA report on 88 th day of my first atip request.
no acknowledgement letter was sent so i sent 2nd traceable request  few days ago .
if they would have sent acknowledgement letter could have saved me confusion and 11 $ of traceable letter.
its good that it had three entries recorded which were  airport landing entries.
i had too many land entries as i was a truck driver running few times a week across land border.
i cant say if  100 % entrie are recorded but i think very close to 100 % are recorded.
more than 280 entries in 20 months period in which i worked  cross border .
also my entries say ----(POE name COMMERCIAL)
only few entries which were in my personal car are recorded as--- ( POE name  TRAFFIC )


 

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