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730 days explanation

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ajshaikh View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Oct 2012 at 1:43pm
Can someone please help me understand the 730 days stay obligation a bit more better.

I have a PR issued to me in Mar 2011. Since then I have been to Canada 3 times and have stayed there for a total of 35 days so far. I now have my own house in Canada and plan to shuffle between Canada and my original country every 3 months or so (3 months in Canada and then 3 months in my country and keep it going like this). I have my own business in my country and plan to incorporate it in Canada (with an office and all).

Do I need to be in Canada for straight 730 days without leaving to be eligible for PR renewal?

If this is not necessary then lets say for my PR renewal (before Mar 2016) I can prove the dates I entered Canada (airline boarding pass), the days I stayed in Canada (still trying to figure this out*) and it all totals up to 730 days or more. Am I then eligible for my PR renewal?

* any smart ideas on how someone can prove that they've been physically present in Canada from X date to Y date (apart from paystubs, credit card transactions, utility bills etc). Thanks in advance.


Edited by ajshaikh - 31 Oct 2012 at 3:15am
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jogruni View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jogruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2012 at 4:41pm
First of all: A valid PR card has absolutely no influence on your PR status!!!

To maintain PR status you need to comply with the following rule:
On each and every day, you need to have been present in Canada on at least 730 days within the previous 5 years. Within the first 5 years a special rule applies: besides the days of physical presence since getting PR status the remaining days (that you theoretically can be present in Canada) do also count as if you were present.

In you case being a PR since Mar 2009 you have accumulated 35 days of presence. From today until Mar 2014 there are approx 17 months (~30 days) or 530 days left.

If you add 35 days and 530 days you do only get 565 days within the initial 5 years.

In fact you are already in breach of your PR obligations!!!

Technically, when you attempt to enter Canada. CBSA officer will likely question you and might find out, that you are in breach of your obligations and you will be denied entry as you are inadmissible to Canada.

You can ask the CBSA officer to let you enter based on Humanitarian & Compassionate grounds. But that very much depends on your situation, wheather there is a chance of success.

There is a chance, that the officer might not question it, but that is a gambling game. You cannt rely on this.

If you manage to enter, without receiving a removal order, you will have to stay within Canada until you have accumulated 730 days, but again, if you leave immediately after getting over 730 days, on the next day, you will be again below 730 days and next reentry might cause the same problems.

All in all it is not likely that you can achieve you plan to travel back and forth every 3 month. Even though your odds to sneak through after a 3 month absence are a bit better, because usually the CBSA officers will ask you, when you left Canada.

To give you a more precise information, I would need exact dates to do a precise calculations.

But the bottom line is, you are in breach of the PR residency requirements and therefor there is a high risk of loosing PR status and being denied entry to Canada.

Consulting an immigration lawyer would be a good idea in your situation.

Unfortunately a lot of PRs do not realize that a valid PR card does not mean they have PR status. The more important part is to meet residency requirements. You should have sked this question a year ago, when you were still safe.


Edited by jogruni - 30 Oct 2012 at 4:51pm
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jogruni View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jogruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2012 at 4:47pm
You should read the following CIC manuals, to get an idea of your situation:

ENF 4 — Port of Entry Examinations
ENF 23 — Loss of Permanent Resident Status
ENF 27 — Permanent Resident Card
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dpenabill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2012 at 3:03am

Quote ajshaikh:
Quote Do I need to be in Canada for straight 730 days without leaving to be eligible for PR renewal?


Largely agree with jogruni.

A slight, semantic clarification: the PR card is indeed evidence of PR status.

One does not really have "valid" PR status or not -- the distinction is whether a PR is admissible or inadmissible to Canada. The PR card does not indicate whether a PR is admissible or inadmissible.

The important thing that jogruni pointed out is that you are already in breach of the residency obligation. You are already inadmissible. If you leave Canada again, any time before you have been in Canada for a total of at least 730 days within the previous five years, you are at risk of being issued a removal order upon returning to Canada.

Similarly, if you apply for a new PR card or apply to sponsor a family member or such, that could trigger a residency assessment.

So, basically, given the extent to which you have already been outside Canada, in a practical sense yes, you need to remain in Canada pretty close to 730 days continuously in order to avoid losing PR status.

If you are currently outside Canada, the sooner you return to Canada the better your odds of avoiding an inquiry at the POE regarding residency. POE officers seem less strict in screening PRs who have been to Canada within the previous year or so, and who have a valid PR card in possession valid for at least another year. However, again, you are already in breach of the obligation, so technically you are inadmissible, and you could be issued a 44 report upon arrival, immediately followed by the issuance of a Removal Order.

Obviously, attempts to mislead POE officers about how much time you have been in Canada constitutes misrepresentation which alone can result in the loss of PR status. Primary evidence they will examine is your passport and the stamps in it.

It is very hard to say just how lenient they are these days since it appears (1) this government has generally elevated the scrutiny of PRs relative to the residency obligation, and (2) they have better and more extensive information and screening technology.

Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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ajshaikh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ajshaikh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2012 at 3:19am
Thanks Jogruni. I am clear now on the separation of PR card and PR status.

However, please note that I had my PR dates wrong (I have edited my post with the correct PR issue/expiry dates now).
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dpenabill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2012 at 12:29pm

Quote ajshaikh:
Quote I am clear now on the separation of PR card and PR status.


Quote ajshaikh (posted after above post):
Quote Is it possible for me to renew my PR card now so that the new PR card is valid from lets say Mar 2013 to Mar 2018 (so that in the next 5 years I can regularly travel in/out of Canada and still meet the PR obligation).


These are not consistent; that is, the second post above (in topic you started titled "PR renewal before expiry") is inconsistent with the earlier post in this topic.

The dates for which a PR card is valid are NOT relevant to the PR residency obligation.

As jogruni stated:
Quote A valid PR card has absolutely no influence on your PR status!!!

As akella stated:
Quote Residency assessment window is a rolling one and is not tied to PR card expiration dates


Bottom-line: a PR who is not present in Canada after becoming a PR, that is after landing, for more than 1095 days in any five year time frame, is thereby in breach of the PR residency obligation.

All a PR card does is evidence PR status. There is no time frame for PR status: once a PR you remain a PR until that status is revoked (lost), surrendered, or until one becomes a citizen. One does not renew PR status.

Again: to avoid being in breach of the residency obligation, you need to avoid being outside Canada for 1095 days in any five year time frame (beginning with the date you landed in Mar 2011). And almost all signs point to CIC and CBSA being more strict about this now, and going forward, than they have been in the past.

Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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computergeek View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote computergeek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2012 at 12:32pm
With the new PR date the analysis changes a bit.  You are not yet in breach of the PR requirement.  So you have ~3.4 years remaining to meet your ~1.9 year commitment to be in Canada.  That would require you spend a bit more than 50% of your time in Canada in order to meet the PR residency obligation. 

Thus, with 40 months remaining, you need to accumulate an additional 23 months of residency.  If you were to spend 4 months in Canada + 3 month outside Canada, you would be roughly on track to meet your residency obligation.


FSW applied 6/09, denied (med inadmissible) 12/11. JR leave granted 7/12, discontinued 9/12. Spousal app PPR 9/12. Landed 13 October 2012
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jogruni View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jogruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2012 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by ajshaikh ajshaikh wrote:

I have a PR issued to me in Mar 2011.
This again is a bit unclear.
Doe that mean you landed on Mar 2011, or does it mean you landed (became PR) in Mar 2009 and a new PR card was issued Mar 2011.

As I stated before this is a huge difference!!!
A valid PR card makes reentry to Canada easyer, but has no influence on your inadmissibility.
And the calculation largely differs if you Mar 2011 date is the issue date of the PR card, but you landed Mar 2009. Because the date you landed and became a PR is what counts!

What we need to make precise calculations:
The date you landed and became a PR?
The date the first PR card was issued?
The validation date of your PR card?
The number of days you were absent from Canada since you became a PR, if you became a PR less than 5 years ago?
OR
The number of days absent withing the previous 5 years, if you became a PR more than 5 years ago.

Are you in Canada right now?

Because details make a big difference, you need to be precise with your phrasing!!!
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jogruni View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jogruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2012 at 1:28pm
I have to add:

The purpose of a valid PR card is solely to provide you with a government issued document, that shows you have the status of a permanent resident (in fact at the time the PR card was issued) to people, that do not have access to CIC or CBSA databases to otherwise determine the status.

Even though the PR card is usually valid for 5 years, it does not guaranty the status for that 5 years.

The only moment where a PR card is required, is when you board a commercial carrier destined to Canada (plane, bus, train). Airlines and other commercial carriers are required to check the PR card for foreigners with a permanent resident status. But they do not always do so. Especially coming from visa waiver countries like US, Germany, ...

Once you reached a Port of Entry (border crossing or airport) a PR card is technically not requred, if you can otherwise satisfy the CBSA officer, that you are a PR.

But no matter with or without a valid PR card this CBSA officer has to determine wheater you are admissible to enter Canada.

In most cases you have to declare on the white paper you got in the plane before landing in Canada, when you last left Canada. If this was like a month ago and you stated you were on vacation and the officer has no other hints in his database (he usually looks up things), the officer will most likely not question any further and let you in.

But in case you left Canada a long time ago (and you need to declare that truthfully !!!) he might ask you further questions and be subject to a secondary inspection to exactly determine how many days of absence you had and wheather you are in breach of the PR obligations. The officer also makes determinations on H&C grounds.

In the end the officer (actually the Minister'd delegate) could decide you are inadmissible (in breach of PR obligations) and issue a removal order and revoke the PR status, when you are in breach of the PR obligations.

In this process the validation periode of your card hase no influence whatsoever.
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