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US citizen applying for Canadian citizenship

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justmejustme View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 10:23am
Hi everyone, my husband is a US Citizen.  We got married in September 2004, and he came in on a temporary visitor visa on 11/1/2004 and I worked on his PR application and submitted in April 2005.  He received PR status about 14 months later.  He has been working full time since November 2006.
 
We had been planning on applying for Canada citizenship since his 3 years residence, but never got around to it.  With the increase in wait times only appearing to grow, we are seriously thinking about doing it sooner rather than later.
 
He stayed in Canada during the time his PR status was being decided, and had his first trip back to see his family about 2007.  He has since been back for several trips to visit his family, not more than a week at a time.  He more than satisfies the 1095 days/4 years requirements.  Trips out of Canada to the US are perhaps 2-4 per year, with a trip to Jamaica and Mexico in the last 4 years for vacations.
 
However, I am concerned that we never kept track of the exact trips and dates of exit/entry.  I have called CIC and they said "just do your best", now I am concerned about not having documented this all this time.  We will certainly "try our best" but I don't want him to shoot himself in the foot either, not having the exact dates, or even every trip.  Most trips were by car, a couple by plane.
 
We also have to renew his PR card since it expired in November last year, and I understand they will cross reference that with the citizenship application, and any discrepancies may trigger RQ. 
 
Knowing these issues now,
 
I have a few questions I hope you can help with:
 
If we state the dates and trips to "the best of our ability" on the PR card renewal and remember another one to put on the citizenship app, will that be a "red flag" for RQ?
 
Can they legally trouble you if you forget a trip, or exact dates, honest mistakes and not intending to defraud?  This would be natural to expect having lived here for 9 years and not expecting we had to document every single small trip to visit his family or otherwise go to the US for a day or two.  I am almost afraid to submit an application for fear of honest mistakes on a trip we don't remember or the exact dates of every single trip to see his family.
 
Would they deny citizenship for an honest mistake on a trip or dates to visit his family?
 
I also understand RQs tend to be triggered more for US citizens?  Any ideas on the chances of RQ?  Are they more likely to RQ based on "ethnic" sounding names?  He is native US citizen and his family is of German descent.
 
I understand we can get entry/exit information from US CBP under FOIA and CBSP as well, but being a US citizen with mostly car crossings, I think they just mostly waved us through most times.  Being a US citizen, they certainly didn't stamp his passport.  Would they have records of all entries/exits including car crossings?  What happens if they don't have records?
 
If we applied for citizenship for him back in 2007 when he was first eligible, would these questions above have been issues?  Would there be less likely chance of RQ?
 
With an RQ, does a signed declaration of the Canadian spouse have any sway on convincing them of Canada residency?  He has worked full time since 2007, but we haven't kept every single pay stub etc since then.  He also is not a member of an volunteer associations or projects.  My family who are all Canadian citizens could also provide declarations.  We have had our own house and a mortgage since 2009.
 
Does retaining an immigration lawyer have any benefit if your case is fairly straightforward, ie. married Canadian citizen and lived here since 2004, pr in 2006, working full-time consistently since 2007, house on our own since 2009.
 
I am really worried about this, so any insight you could offer is much appreciated.
 
Thank you.
 
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canuck25 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck25 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 12:06pm
A few comments to your specific statements/questions below:

With the increase in wait times only appearing to grow, we are seriously thinking about doing it sooner rather than later.

Keep in mind that while RQ timelines are getting longer, there have been reports in this forum of people receiving citizenship in less than a year recently, though the official timeframes are around 20 months. If your husband does not receive an RQ, his application could be finalized quickly.

However, I am concerned that we never kept track of the exact trips and dates of exit/entry.  I have called CIC and they said "just do your best", now I am concerned about not having documented this all this time.  We will certainly "try our best" but I don't want him to shoot himself in the foot either, not having the exact dates, or even every trip.  Most trips were by car, a couple by plane.

Your citizenship application will have a checkbox which will give CIC permission to obtain your husband's travel records directly from the CBSA. If you are concerned about any discrepancies, I would urge you to obtain CBSA records directly before submitting your application so that you see exactly what the government will see. Then you need to make sure that you declare every trip that shows up on the CBSA report, and cross reference each trip with stamps your husband may have in his American passport. If there are stamps that are not correlating to the CBSA report (sometimes CBSA does not track every trip), you need to declare it and explain it as well. This applies to flights that may have originated from the US to another country and not out of Canada. The CBSA report will track his crossings by foot, by car and by air.

I would also obtain a USCBP report. 

If we state the dates and trips to "the best of our ability" on the PR card renewal and remember another one to put on the citizenship app, will that be a "red flag" for RQ?

It would be best to apply for his PR card with the same information as will be in his citizenship application, though renewing a PR card before applying for citizenship is not in itself a trigger for an RQ.

Can they legally trouble you if you forget a trip, or exact dates, honest mistakes and not intending to defraud?  This would be natural to expect having lived here for 9 years and not expecting we had to document every single small trip to visit his family or otherwise go to the US for a day or two.  I am almost afraid to submit an application for fear of honest mistakes on a trip we don't remember or the exact dates of every single trip to see his family.

CIC looks at applicants' overall credibility and forgetting an occasional trip can be forgiven and will be judged within the context of your husband's overall application. That being said, you should do your homework and prepare the application as diligently as you can. Obtaining the CBSA report as well as a USCBP report is the first step. I am sure the CIC accounts for unintentional occasional omissions and the case officers are trained to recognize these against the background of knowingly and deliberately omitting information.

Would they deny citizenship for an honest mistake on a trip or dates to visit his family?
Citizenship cannot be denied simply because he made a mistake. If it is deemed that he did not convince the case officer that he has satisfied his physical presence requirements and/or there are concerns with this application, it will be long-tracked meaning that he will be issued an RQ and may have to see a citizenship judge. But again - this is largely an issue with applicants who lack general credibility. If your husband is missing a trip or two that shouldn't be an issue. 

I also understand RQs tend to be triggered more for US citizens?  Any ideas on the chances of RQ?  Are they more likely to RQ based on "ethnic" sounding names?  He is native US citizen and his family is of German descent.

I have not seen evidence of this.

I understand we can get entry/exit information from US CBP under FOIA and CBSP as well, but being a US citizen with mostly car crossings, I think they just mostly waved us through most times.  Being a US citizen, they certainly didn't stamp his passport.  Would they have records of all entries/exits including car crossings?  What happens if they don't have records?

CBSA tracks his crossings through a variety of means and when you cross by car they never stamp your passport. They do scan it most times even if you don't notice, and record your license plate number (to the extent that they note in the record whether you are a passenger or the driver at the time of the crossing) so chances are the CBSA has accurate records of your husband's travel. As I mentioned before you need to fill out his travel history to the best of your ability, reconciling your personal recollection of travels with the CBSA/USCBP reports, as well as with the stamps in his passport.

If we applied for citizenship for him back in 2007 when he was first eligible, would these questions above have been issues?  Would there be less likely chance of RQ?
This is irrelevant.

With an RQ, does a signed declaration of the Canadian spouse have any sway on convincing them of Canada residency?  He has worked full time since 2007, but we haven't kept every single pay stub etc since then.  He also is not a member of an volunteer associations or projects.  My family who are all Canadian citizens could also provide declarations.  We have had our own house and a mortgage since 2009.
Every case is different and while personal declarations may appear to add credibility, because they are personal CIC likely questions them more. UNLESS YOU GET RQed there is no need for you to submit information that is not requested in the citizenship application. 



Edited by canuck25 - 23 Apr 2013 at 1:47pm
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justmejustme View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote justmejustme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 12:31pm
Thanks so much for your reply canuck25, I will share it with my husband.
 
Once we do go through with the citizenship application, should we be wary of travelling outside Canada for any reason as long as we keep records?  There was a cbc.ca article this week on the growing wait times for application, and one of the people stated she was worried about leaving Canada while her application was in process for an rq.
 
If he has a valid pr status even without a valid pr card, should he fear leaving Canada once he's applied for citizenship or it's in process?  We were thinking of taking another trip to the Caribbean, but we would have to fly out of Buffalo to do that since he doesn't have a valid pr card right now.  When we cross the border without the pr card, we do have letters from his current and previous employers indicating he's been employed full time since 2006 in case we are ever questioned.  We have not had any problems in the 2 years since it's been expired though, they usually wave him through on his current US passport, he has a landing stamp in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canuck25 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 12:52pm
I have read the article you are referring to and don't quite understand why the applicant is concerned about travelling outside of Canada. The CIC only asks you to inform them of your travel if you are leaving the country for more than 2 weeks - and the request is based simply out of caution that you may miss some mail from them while away. 

As far as the PR card - not sure if lack of it is or is not a problem. There are other means for border patrol agents to determine that he is a permanent resident and not out of status, so I am guessing you should be OK just with his US passport and landing stamp. To be fully compliant, however, renewing the PR card may not be a bad idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Danforth Jones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by justmejustme justmejustme wrote:

I also understand RQs tend to be triggered more for US citizens?  


I haven't seen any basis to believe that.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 2:48pm


I think the responses given by canuck25 are excellent and I largely concur in them.

And I doubt there will be any significant problems, although there is always some risk of RQ and the burdensome inconvenience and delays that entails.

Nonetheless, I'd further offer the following:

If you can obtain both the U.S. and CBSA travel records that should really help you at least identify all or nearly all trips -- going back four years Canada was not capturing all land entries, so the CBSA records for a U.S. citizen can easily be incomplete; even for the U.S. entries, they were not yet recording every entry for U.S. citizens, so those too may not be complete. But you should be able to compare what you get with your own memory and records to reconstruct nearly all trips and be relatively close as to dates.

Note: old credit card statements and bank statements should help refresh your memories to a large extent, at least in being able to pin down the occurrence of a trip and some dates associated with that trip. Doing the homework is worthwhile because it very well may make the difference between getting RQ or not; for most in this situation, getting RQ should not be problematic, just a delay, but given how long he has been living in Canada it is worth knowing that if he does get RQ, unfortunately it will ask for all travel going back to the date of coming to Canada to live. Note, then, because of this, if the PR application was an out-of-Canada application, he probably should report the date of landing as the date he came to live in Canada (so in case there is RQ he only has to go back to the date of landing) -- no reason to confuse things by saying he had come to live in Canada when he was a "visitor" prior to the date of landing, even though he was staying in Canada indefinitely during that time. However, if it was an in-Canada PR application (your PR processing timeline suggests the possibility of this to me, since most sponsored partner apps for U.S. citizens back then were taking way less than a year let alone 14 months), probably best to use the date you indicated you began living together in Canada in that application.

Personally I would use the online residence calculator and make a note in the box for entering the "reason" for the trip indicating the dates are a best recollection (in addition to a brief explanation of reason for trip -- for U.S. trips I also noted the particular city and state I traveled to). This way you will be sure to identify what dates are approximate or best recollection versus those you are certain about.

As canuck25 and Danforth Jones both indicate, neither have I seen any evidence to suggest that U.S. citizens are given RQ more than PRs from other countries. I do not know, but I suspect it is less.

That said, historically applicants with residential ties or work history in the U.S., and those with partners or dependents living or working in the U.S., and those whose partner is a U.S. citizen, have appeared to be at higher risk for RQ.

U.S. citizen applicants with continued employment ties in the U.S. also appear to have a higher risk of RQ.

Overall, since you have been patient this long, and depending on how well you can reconstruct the travel dates, I would lean toward getting both the U.S. and CBSA records before applying, and probably before applying to renew the PR card as well. I think it was a bit of a mistake to not have renewed the PR card (not too bad of one, but . . . well, should have gotten the PR card renewed). There is no overt indication that an expired PR card or a recently renewed one is a trigger for RQ, but I have the sense that one expired this long is a significant factor that could elevate the risk of RQ significantly; and I also have the sense that renewing after an extended time of it being expired and just before applying for citizenship is something that will draw attention of the raising questions sort. So, overall even though some mistakes in the declaration of travel abroad should not be problematic (and certainly not relative to the ultimate outcome), in conjunction with other factors like the expired PR card, the risk of RQ goes up, and RQ is a real inconvenience (intrusive into one's privacy and quite a lot of work . . . especially for someone who will have to report at least back mid 2006), so if you can fashion the application to minimize RQ risks you want to.

All that said, even if given RQ there is probably a very low risk of a problem regarding the final outcome.

Crossing the border without a valid PR card should be no different after applying than before.    

CIC tends (so far as I have discerned) to give little weight to declarations from family or friends; if an applicant is given RQ, though, and despite CIC's dismissive attitude toward them, if they are statutory declarations (sworn to before a notary or other official authorized to administer oaths) a Citizenship Judge has to consider them and, in fact, is obligated to accept them as true statements unless there is evidence of record tending to controvert them. They are easy to submit and provide some insurance.


Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote justmejustme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 3:39pm
Thank you all for your answers.
 
dpenabill, yes it was an application inside Canada.  We were just married, he wasn't working, and so there was no reason to remain apart and apply from outside Canada. 
 
We didn't renew the pr card, it wasn't a huge priority as when I called CIC about it before it expired, they said if we don't travel out of Canada by air, it's not required.  Pr card was only instituted in the last 10 years.  My father was a permanent resident of Canada for over the 40 years that he lived here, never became a citizen, travelled to the US and Europe on occasion, might be years between trips, but never had a problem. 
 
CIC said as long as we can prove he lived here, if questioned at the border, maybe bring letters from his current/previous employers to validate his residency.  We bring them every time we go and the border guards never ask for them, even when we've volunteered them they said "that's overkill", smile and wave us on through after looking at my Canadian and his US passport, we have the same last name.  So at least to the border guards, an expired pr card isn't a big deal, a lot of prs don't have them, especially those who landed 10+ years ago.  I think they see it as a "nice to have".
 
Thank you for the advice on the sworn declarations -- I may not remember all the dates or trips, but I can definitely attest to the fact that he's more than in the 1095/4 years requirement, each trip was only 2-7 days, and only 2-4 trips out of Canada per year.  This I would be entirely comfortable in having an affadavit sworn in front of a notary etc.
 
Since we've waited this long... it may make sense to get the CBP and CBSA records, apply for the pr card, and maybe wait a year or so after that to start the citizenship application?  So it doesn't look like we just renewed the pr card and jumped on the citizenship application at the same time or right away?  We aren't that much in a rush, except for the fact the timelines keep going up!  Like I said, my dad was a permanent resident his entire life and never got citizenship, same with his wife he brought from Europe 20 years ago.  Their daughter/my half-sister was born abroad, has lived here her entire 22 years, and is not a citizen either.  None of them have ever had any problems at the border.
 
EVeryone's help is much appreciated. :)
 


Edited by justmejustme - 23 Apr 2013 at 4:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 4:43pm

I suspect the timelines are on their way back down from what they have been for the last year. I could have applied well over a year ago and am glad I waited until this spring to do so . . . I will probably get RQ but either way I have a strong sense things will go better having waited . . . those who applied between September 2011 (I met the qualifications around that time and could have applied then), through most of last year, seem to have been unluckily caught in the crossfire of changes, fraud interdiction, and increased applications.

One of the reasons I try to give back a lot to this forum is that it was here that I learned I could make my sponsored PR application outside-Canada even though at the time I was applying I was in Canada, I had a visitor record to stay in Canada and was staying in Canada with my sponsoring partner. At that time the inland timeline was up to over a year and a half, whereas I got my visa in just a little over four months after sending the app to Mississauga; never left Canada while the application was pending.

I do not know that you would need to wait a full year. In fact, I think things are going to improve significantly for well-qualified applicants getting RQ, so applying sooner and getting RQ should not result in an overall timeline any longer and maybe significantly shorter than waiting another year to apply. (In this respect my view is a bit different than that expressed by canuck25; it does seem, though, that what canuck25 said about the RQ timeline growing longer is true for those not given a file review.)

And in this regard, the thing is there are so many factors which can trigger RQ, to some extent it is not worth trying to navigate around the risks -- main reason in his instance is how burdensome the RQ would be given the extent to which they ask for information as of the date the applicant arrived in Canada to live. They even ask for day trips in the RQ! But you could wait a year to apply and still get RQ.

Overall, as I said, things should turn out OK, just a matter of how much hassle in the meantime and how long it takes.

Side note: I have a friend who similarly has been a PR for over four decades, sometimes thinks about applying for citizenship but never does. He became a PR at a time when Canada required new citizens to renounce prior citizenships and by the time the law changed he simply was used to being a PR . . . carrying a passport from a country (not the U.S. though) which facilitates easy international travel makes a difference.



Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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