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CANADIAN CITIZENSHIP AND US GC

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agique View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Jun 2011 at 12:02pm
Here are my situation and concerns:

I became a Canadian PR in October 2008; Immigrating from the US. I had a US GC which allowed me entry into Canada without a visa. I obtained my US GC in May of 2002. I will be eligible to apply for Canadian Citizenship in August, and my worries are:

1. The likelihood that i will be given an RQ since I have a US GC
2. I travel to the US once every 4-5 months and return back after a few days.
3. I have strong family ties in canada( 2 kids all canadian citizens, living with my common law partner)
4. I have credit cards and banks accounts, my own IT company, pay taxes, have a card financed through Honda Canada(Brand new - $40,000)
5. I've used my OHIP card on a few occasions since I received it.

On the citizenship application, it asks on 6D DO you have Permanent Resident Status in another country? Should I answer Yes or NO? I am inclined to say yes but, this may raise an issue. However, on the instruction guide to filing out the application, on the same question #6D,  it says "Write if you obtained permanent residence in another country since becoming a permanent resident of Canada. If yes, list the country (countries) and the date you obtained this status." in this case, my answer to this questions would be NO since i DID NOT obtain my US GC after 2008 - my Canadian PR status.


http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/kits/citizen/0002E.pdf

Because of this worries and concerns, I have been keeping all my store receipts, atm receipts, infact any transaction that i do in CANADA  for the past 3 years.

I have also requested my CBSA Travel history and FOSS notes to see what they have in their records as well.

I would appreciate it if you could give me your honest opinion and what would be the best option for me. And also the likelihood that I will get approved for citizenship.


Thanks a lot.
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canvis2006 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote canvis2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2011 at 12:29pm
You must be honest. Don't lie on the application.

If you get caught by CIC with misrepresentation, it will be serious trouble. Furthermore, citizenship obtained through misrepresentation can be revoked by the Govt of Canada. Remember that.

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agique View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2011 at 12:34pm
Thanks for the honest answer. I intend to be as honest as possible without hiding any verifiable/unverifiable facts.

But my question still lies on what I should answer on the Citizenship application question 6D: Do you have Permanent Resident Status in Another Country? If yes when and what Country?

A look at the Application instructions and guide for this question says: 6D

Write if you obtained permanent residence in another country since becoming a permanent resident of Canada.

If yes, list the country (countries) and the date you obtained this status.


Since I did not obtain my US GC after immigrating to Canada should I say Yes to this question?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2011 at 3:31pm
The item in the application form is worded differently than the guide instructions. The application form asks:
Quote Do you have permanent resident status in any other country?"


Does not get much more straightforward than that. If you do have status, the truthful answer is "yes."

I strongly lean toward full disclosure. Odds are it is something that would be apparent from examining your passports anyway. So being upfront and forthright will not raise any issues that would not already be on the table.

If 6.D. was worded the same as the guide, I might be inclined to interpret "obtained . . . since" as referring to the date the status was acquired. But the wording in the application form is not ambiguous, it asks: "Do you have . . ." and so, if you "do have" PR status for the U.S. the proper answer is, well, obvious. The wording, "if you obtained . . . since" is a bit ambiguous, and is not necessarily limited to the date such status was first acquired.

I am not sure how the U.S. G.C. system works but I thought a person would lose that status if they remained outside the U.S. as long as you say you have. If you still have valid G.C. status, yes, it appears that at least at some local offices this is something that triggers closer examination . . . whether or not all persons fitting this category are given RQ I have NO idea. But I do not think you do yourself any favors by trying to not reveal that you have a valid G.C., and actually to the contrary.

It is probably worth waiting for some time longer than just barely getting past the 1095 mark before you apply. And you are wise to be obtaining and maintaining the records you have. Be absolutely certain that your travel disclosure is perfectly accurate and complete . . . and in that regard I personally would not rely on just the online residency calculator but use the form, and on the form report any day trips to the U.S. (they count as zero days gone, but it is a way to illustrate the extent to which you are being forthcoming about all travel).
Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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agique View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2011 at 6:10pm
Thanks for all the insights and ideas. My only passport that I used to enter Canada and obtained my Landed stamp is still valid and shows just 2 travels outside of canada. In other times, the passport was never stamped. I was almost inclined to state that " No" to 6D since the Guide provided by the CIC clearly states that 6D - If you obtained PR status elsewhere since becoming a Canadian PR. 

And since there are no other stamps in my passport, I would just cross my fingers and hoping that Officer will only rely on the dates in my passport. But after reading your comments, " full and complete disclosure" seem to be the way to go.

How often does CIC check the CBSA Travel history for every citizenship applications?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dpenabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2011 at 9:51pm
It is my understanding that actually CIC does not have direct access to a PR's CBSA travel history . . . some have reported being asked to submit it in the course of RQ (and actually, it is my impression that is not usually asked for in the RQ itself but may be requested later attendant a hearing . . . I asked earlier in this thread if anyone received the request for CBSA travel history in the initial RQ and have seen no response by anyone saying they have . . . but I do not really know, having seen only a few cover letters that came with RQ). But I believe that for the CBSA travel history, if a CIC officer or the Citizenship Judge wants to see that, they have to ask the applicant to obtain it and submit it. (Some exceptions no doubt apply, such as where there is an investigation for a perceived security risk or suspected fraud.)

I believe CIC has access to other records like FOSS.

A good deal of information is shared between Canada and the U.S., but to what extent, what the boundaries are, I do not know.

Bottom line, though, is that there is a lot that can be read between the lines in almost any immigrant's history. CIC personnel have seen all the possible variations. They know the range of possibilities, they know a lot of probabilities, and they can fill in the gaps.

Unfortunately what it probably comes down to is whether there is a policy to give RQ to anyone who also has PR status elsewhere, including the U.S. . . . some have suggested that there is such a policy, others have thought it was a policy at some local offices but not all, still others think it just increases the risk of RQ but does not necessarily result in RQ. What I do not see is that anything is to be gained by answering "no" to 6.D. if you still have current GC status in the States, but rather have something to lose: credibilty and if you lose credibility, that will often hurt and can hurt a lot. How your particular circumstances add up, I do not know, but I think you have to go with what you have, play it straight, and like I said earlier: give yourself a good margin on meeting the 1095 days of actual, physical presence in Canada (I believe in this quite strongly . . . I have some potential issues myself, which is why I have not yet even filed my application, even though technically I now am past the actual, physical presence threshold . . . in fact, while every week I flirt with the idea of thinking I qualify, I'm eligible so I should apply, in practice I will probably wait until there is no hint of an issue, another seven or eight months perhaps).


Bureaucracy is what bureaucracy does, or When in doubt, follow the instructions. Otherwise, follow the instructions.



BTW: Not an expert, not a Can. lawyer, never worked in immigration
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timbit_TO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2011 at 3:32am
The phrasing of this question in the citizenship application was changed at some point between 2004 and 2005 from "Did you obtain permanent residence in another country since becoming a permanent resident of Canada? Yes No If yes, please list the country (countries)" to the present form.

Inexplicably, years later, the guide still has not been updated, which naturally leads to the questions raised by the OP.

As someone used to tell me, if I get on a plane and see broken armrests, dirty cushions and burned out light bulbs, do they really expect me to believe that the rest of the aircraft is in tip-top mechanical condition?
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agique View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2011 at 3:16pm
Given that the phrasing was somewhat changed in 2004/2005, would it be accurate to suggest that the Guide is misleading if one in my peculiar circumstances choses to rely on the guide to filling answering the 6D as No. Given that the Guide posted on the CIC website clearly instructs applicants on how to answer the questions on the application. Argumentatively, one could assert that if I acquired US GC in 2002, and immigrated to Canada in 2007, and became eligible for citizenship in canada; upon completing the application 6D comes into play; 
"Did you obtain permanent residence in another country since becoming a permanent resident of Canada? Yes No If yes, please list the country (countries)" 

If one answers  NO  based on the guide, it could be argued that the answer is correct? Given CIC's guidelines to completing this application, though you and I knows they have erred in updating the guide?

Your thoughts....

Another question/concern is the reason why CIC officers are very reliant on the stamps on the applicant's passport during citizenship interviews when all the travel information readily available to the CBSA Travel history. I know another member posted that the two agencies are different. It would make sense to anyone that CIC would be so reliant on the passpport stamps instead of CBSA Travel history. Not sure why they do that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DC boi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2011 at 11:40pm
agique, I think there are a number of ways to get through the citizenship hurdle with minimal pain.

Option1: Answer "NO" on your application to the question regarding permanent residency in another country and hope no flags are raised during the test phase of the process. This is an option that I am inclined to advise you NOT to take because it would clearly constitute lying. Regardless of the change in language - the FACT is that you hold permanent residency rights in the US and denying such rights due to a technicality because you seek citizenship in Canada, would prove a high level of dishonesty. I don't have a clue if your application would sail through using this option, but I can guarantee you that HONESTY IS ALWAYS THE BEST POLICY.

Option 2: Ah, here's the best part! The good news is that holding a GC does not automatically bar you from Canadian citizenship or mean that you would definitely receive an RQ (although it could). In fact, I would recommend that you mark YES and put down the DATE WHEN YOU BECAME A US PR as requested in the application documents. During the test phase, if the immigration officer asks you questions about having PR in both countries - a simple HONEST answer that "Yes indeed, I do have a green card but I have made Canada my HOME for the past 3 years with the full intention of living here as a citizen" should be adequate. What plays to your advantage is that you received the green card BEFORE you even moved to Canada as a PR. Make that point absolutely clear and if you're questioned about renouncing your GC, let them know it never crossed your mind to do so as you were not aware that one affects the other.

Now there's no guarantee that the scenario above would work and yes, you could get an RQ. However, as long as you have met the legislative requirement of 1095 days of residency and the other stuff - I believe you should be alright. This brings me to my last point.

I have no idea how long you have lived in Canada but if you only moved to Canada as a PR in October 2008 and have no prior days that could count as 0.5 days towards citizenship, the math indicates that the earliest time for you to file an application is October 2011 (1095 days later and not counting any travel within the said period). Your statement that you would "be eligible to apply for Canadian Citizenship in August" would then be inaccurate and you must determine if you have reached the required 1095 days of PHYSICAL PRESENCE if you intend minimizing unnecessary inconvenience.

Whatever option you take, I wish you the best !



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timbit_TO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2011 at 12:32am
Originally posted by agique agique wrote:


Your thoughts....

I completely agree with dpenabill that there's absolutely nothing for you to gain by trying to stretch the truth under the pretense of being mislead by the guide.  It is quite likely that your PR status in the US is known to CIC (did you not disclose your US status when applying for PR?).  You obviously travel there as a GC holder, you trips will be clearly disclosed on the application, so what is the point of trying to cover up the obvious?

Originally posted by agique agique wrote:


Another question/concern is the reason why CIC officers are very reliant on the stamps on the applicant's passport during citizenship interviews when all the travel information readily available to the CBSA Travel history. I know another member posted that the two agencies are different. It would make sense to anyone that CIC would be so reliant on the passpport stamps instead of CBSA Travel history. Not sure why they do that?

I am not sure why you are concerning yourself with this trivia, but since you asked, a) the two agencies are different, b) CBSA only records arrivals not departures.

You main concern is to have a good and consistent record of your arrivals/departures to/from Canada -  that means no missed or forgotten trips, AND a reasonable collection of "active indicia" of your life in Canada - that means records that attest to your bodily presence and personal activities in Canada.
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